Psycho-social interviewing - interview extract one (part two)

Study Title: Gender Difference, Anxiety and the Fear of Crime 1995

Information about interviewee
Date of birth: 1953
Gender: Male
Marital status: Unknown
Occupation: Unemployed
Geographic region: Unknown but classed as a 'high crime' area.
Interviewee's name: Tommy/TJ(1)
Interview ID: int68

Tommy/TJ Interview 2 6 July 1995

TJ Right, sorry about that slow start. OK. This is really gonna be in 2 stages. I'm gonna follow up some of things that came out from last time

yeah

TJ and then there's some specific questions which may or may not be relevant, depending on what's come up beforehand

yeah

TJ if you see what I mean? OK. So the first - first sort of questions are really about your work history and your previous family history just to get it - I mean I realised after I'd listened I'd listened to the tape last time, I knew quite a lot about you now, and I felt I knew something about you as a young man

yeah

TJ a big chunk in the middle which I

some are missing

TJ so could you pick up your work history, after

leaving school

TJ the apprenticeship. You did the apprenticeship with

yeah

TJ and then you say it finished in 1976.

Yeah well it went, it went bust.

TJ Right. Let's pick it up from there.

From on - from on, from that went on, from there then I went to er, Brishams. That was an aluminium firm.

TJ Right.

But that was working on nights and er, I didn't like, I didn"t like nights. It were 10 while 6 o'clock. And they were long hours. There were just me and another chap on nights.

TJ Yeah.

And it was 5 nights a week.

TJ Yeah.

And to get from 'ere to other end of town

TJ yeah

it was a drag. And trying to get a bus in the morning to come back 'ome, it was even worse.

TJ Yeah.

And finishing at 6 and not getting 'ome while 1/2 past 7, 1/4 to 8

TJ yeah

it was really shattering. Well er, I were only there, I were only there for about 6 months. They laid me off. And from on there I were laid off for about 2 year then. And I worked at Foxwells on Shipwell Street. But - making moulds. That were only - that were only a 3 month job.

TJ Yeah.

That was a lay off.

TJ Yeah.

Then from 1979 onwards I started at Allsops in [heavy manual work].

TJ Right.

Classed - I was classed as a er, a [heavy manual work] spare 'elper.

TJ Yeah.

There I used to work on nights I used to go on 6 while 6.

TJ Yep.

Six at night while 6 in the morning, 5 nights. Used to have 2 shifts, 6 "til, 6 "til 2, and er, 6 while 6 on nights. Er, I were, I were really enjoying that work, one of best jobs I've ever 'ad, because it's supposed to be a communist firm this.

TJ Yeah.

And you couldn't - you couldn't get into this firm unless you got - unless you'd got relations.

TJ Yeah.

Well this chap I know what lives down road, 'e worked there, 30 odd year. And 'e's told me there were some jobs available. He said "when you go down, just tell 'em your me uncle." And I went down for interview. "Sit down." I said "oh me uncle Chris - Chris Grimes ." They said "oh yeah, 'e's been 'ere a few year." Well I 'ad the interview. I got a phone call - well I 'ad a letter week after, to start on nights. Anyhow we were going on and on and on, and all of a sudden iit started slowing down and slowing down. He started taking, er, cranks elsewhere. You know like to Smithwells, where they'd got their own machines, you just press this straight down into one.

TJ Yeah.

Just took it out of fire, just pressed it straight into a crank, where as we were, we were taking it out of fire, 'itting it wi' an 'ammer, taking the scrap off and then piling all cranks up, and they ended up going down into machine shop. I lasted there 18 month but er, the [heavy manual workshop] closed down. But machine shop's still going. I'd got an option, taking redundancy or going into machine shop.

TJ Yeah.

So I ended up taking redundancy because the machine shop people - they all work for themselves. They didn't like, they didn"t like anybody coming out of [heavy manual workshop] down to their place.

TJ Yeah.

So I ended up taking redundancy. But from 1979 - well - I finished in 1980 and ever since I haven't 'ad a job.

TJ Since 1980?

Since 1980. '80, '81.

TJ Was that - that job lasted 18 months did you say?

Yeah.

TJ Eighteen months. Since 1981. And it was just that the firm ...

It was just that the, the [heavy manual workshop] - they took it, they took it elsewhere. They were just - there were just machines, it was Smithwells, they were just pressing the cranks, and er ...

TJ So how do you feel about being unemployed?

Well it's 'orrible.

TJ Yeah.

It is 'orrible. I've - nearly 15 year, well going on 15 year.

TJ Yeah.

Wi' out a job.

TJ Yeah.

It's gonna, it"s gonna get worse before it gets better. Look what they've done now with, with dole offices.

TJ Yeah.

Made all them redundant.

TJ Yeah. Yeah.

There's 3 million - there's 3 million unemployed na. So, in fact, I, I never go because you don't know which way to go. You don't know who's gonna gain and who's gonna lose. [Inaudible] It's, but er, I'd love to get a job.

TJ Yeah.

Even a driving job.

TJ Yeah.

'cos I enjoy driving. But er, there's no-no-nothing. I think the best place to do na, is either emigrate or go down London where the work is. That's the only alternative you can do.

TJ Mmm.

Best thing to do na is emigrate. But you've got to 'ave money to, to emigrate 'aven't ya?

TJ It's true. But your partner works does she?

No.

TJ No? She doesn't?

No.

TJ No. So your both

both unemployed

TJ unemployed.

Well the situation there, she used to work at er, Robin Hood pub.

TJ Right.

But a coloured chap - we've got a coloured chap were running it.

TJ Yeah.

So 'e were getting a bit stroppy. 'e were leaving 'er in pub on 'er own, while 'e were going out. And I didn't like that. So I went round and told 'im. Said "I'm 'er gaffer, not you." Said "I tell 'er what to do, but you don't tell 'er what to do." 'e started being clever. So I said "right" I says "that's it." I said "from now on she's not working for you no more." He turned round "oh yes she will." Said "Mary, you're not working for 'im no more." She went "alright love." It cost us a few bob, she were getting sixty odd pound a week part time. But I wanted to make sure I got in before 'e got in. And I wanted to prove to 'im to whom gaffer were, not, not 'im. You know what I mean? You know what I mean?

TJ Yeah. Yeah.

And in fact, he turned to 'er. He want - she, she can go back tomorrow.

TJ Yeah.

She could go back tomorrow.

TJ Yeah.

But er, I'm not 'aving 'im dictating to 'er, or dictating to me - to tell me what to do with my missus.

TJ Yeah. Yeah. Of course. So, (interruption "tea, no sugar, just a drop of milk.") Em, so how do you feel generally about the fact that you did this 7 - 6 year apprenticeship

Seven year apprenticeship. I've still got, I"ve still got certificate upstairs.

TJ And you never actually became a glass beveller?

(stumbling over beginning of sentence). No, it never came (stumbling) I passed me bevelling job, with me apprenticeship.

TJ Yeah.

And I never got into a job properly. And I served a 7 year apprenticeship. After all that, all that work had gone to waste.

TJ Mmm. You must have been one of the last of the apprenticeship servers.

Yeah. I've got to 'ave been, yeah. And after, after my apprenticeship er, there were Harold Passmore's glass place. But er, Mr Passmore 'is self, not Elmore, Selwyn Passmore - came down and gid me 2 pence an hour pay rise, 'cos I'd passed me apprenticeship. And I couldn't believe it. Worked - I worked 40 hours a week and 'e gid me 80 pence a week extra.

TJ (laugh). Oh no.

For serving me apprenticeship. [Inaudible] he give me, he give me a certificate.

TJ Yeah.

And I, I couldn't believe it. I've taken it upstairs in a, in a glass frame. It's, it"s nice to 'ave, 'cos it's, it"s something to have achieved. And I did. It took 7 years to do it and after that.

TJ I know.

he went bust.

TJ Ironic isn't it?

See, go to every other glass firms they've all got glass bevellers, they don't want anybody else.

TJ Yeah. Yeah. The other area was your previous family history that I just wanted to fill in a bit. Your first marriage. I mean did you actually get married to the woman you were engaged to when you had the long hair.

No, I've never been married.

TJ Ah, you've never been married?

Never been married.

TJ You were engaged then, though weren't you?

I was engaged - twice.

TJ Twice. OK.

I've, I"ve, I"ve 3 kiddies to me - I've 3 other children.

TJ Right the 3 you now have.

To me first girl.

TJ Right.

Got a daughter at 15, a lad at 12 and a lad at 9.

TJ Right.

And this young lad 'ere, 'e's my little lad - 'e's 5.

TJ Right.

But these 2 others are Mary's children.

TJ Yeah.

They've grown up with me from

TJ I understand

well, as you can see.

TJ Yeah. So tell me a little bit about that relationship with the 3 children, 15, 12 and 9? What happened?

See, I used to come 'ome - this is when I were at [inaudible] working mornings and afternoons, nights. She liked the money, and she liked to get out. I used to listen to 'er and she used to tell me what to do. Because I 'ad to bite me lip, you know what I mean? 'cos I could 'ave got violent wi' 'er. But I just bit me lip. And then she started going out, started going out, and gradually she was stopping out for weekend. So what I did, I took the kids off 'er. Got me self 'ouse on Forest Grove estate round 'ere. And I took, I took the kids. I got the kids. And, fortunately I went out one night. I got a baby sitter in - went out one night to a night club and I met Mary there, who's with me na. And we 'it it off from there. She kept coming in. 'er 'usband found out. We didn't 'ave an argument or owt like that. She told 'im straight. 'e came to see me, never 'ad argument. And sorted it all out, er, within 2 week 'is solicitor came. Says to Mary "do you want a quick divorce?" Mary said "yeah." Within 3 weeks she were divorced. And we're still, and we"re still good friends me and 'er, and "er ex-husband, 'cos 'e phones up every time to see if, if 'is lads are alright. If 'is lads want to go down to see 'im, they go down and see 'im. But oldest one, Les - well 'e's grown up na - 'e's 19 this year, like 'e's accepting me as 'is grandad for 'is daughter - which I think were great. 'e don't want anything to do with 'is dad. 'cos 'is dad's never done anything for 'im. It's me what's done it for all for 'em. 'e passed 'is test yesterday.

TJ Yeah.

I paid for 'im to 'ave driving lessons. Forty two lessons, and er, £420.

TJ Yeah.

And 'e passed 'is test yesterday.

TJ Oh that's nice.

So I got 'im green L plates.

TJ Yeah.

I went to pick 'im up from work. 'cos 'e works at Bradleys. Finished at 2 o'clock. I'm sat in passenger - I says "come on then, let"s get [inaudible] now you've passed your test." 'e wouldn't go in drivers seat - too nervous. I went in this morning, with 'im being on at 6, I said "have, have an extra lay in bed, 'ave 1/2 hour lay in bed." I says "take car wi' ya." He says "alright, thanks." So, as you know, I move the car off estate anyhow. And I told 'im where it were. Well he gets in car, about 10 minutes later 'e comes back. 'e says "I can't - steering wheel won't move." I says "'cos there's a steering lock on it." "What you've gotta do Les, you've got to put the key in, waggle key and steering wheel and steering wheel will come loose." I said "don't forget, just pull a little bit of choke out and gi' it some revs, you'll be alright."

TJ Yeah.

"Once the, once the car's going alright, just push the choke back in." "Right." So off, off 'e goes again. This time I were getting up at 1/4 to. So I thought, I'll take dog out, down to paper shop, fetch a paper. I"m walking down street - 'e's walking past. I said "what's up?" "Battery's flat on car." Well I gets there, 'e's that far away parked off, off of, off of a kerb.

TJ (laugh).

(111) Double yellow line. 'e'd pulled choke out about that much.

TJ Yeah.

'e'd flooded it.

TJ Flooded it.

So, I said, "now watch yourself." So I pushed choke in. I said "it'll start now." Just a couple of turns it started. 'e said "well how 'ave you done that?" I said "'cos you've flooded it, trying to set off." He said "just take me to work." He said "and leave it at that."

TJ (laugh).

I said "you've got to get used to it." I said "I've just put you on the insurance."

TJ Yeah. [Inaudible] So what happened to the children then - I mean you had them with you?

I 'ad them, and er, em

TJ but you don't have them now

no, she came back, and she wanted 'er kids back. I, I didn't want to argue about it. They, they always go back to the mother don't they? What I say, they always go back to the mother. They've gone back to their mother. "Er, er - I see 'em all, I still see me daughter 'cos me daughter was buying a house, "er and Martin was buying a house on [inaudible].

TJ Many thanks.

Thank you dear (cups rattling).

TJ How old were they when this happened.

Er, our Martin"s 9 now, so - 'e were only 2.

TJ So we're talking about 7

seven or 8 - 7 to 8 years yeah. I've known, I've been, I've known Mary 11 years.

TJ Mmm Hm.

No, our Martin's 11. Fifteen, 13 and 11. I've known Mary 11 years.

TJ Right.

And she's lived with me 8 years.

TJ So

So Paul, me young - Paul didn't really know anything about it. You know what I mean? With 'im being young. But the other 2 did you see.

TJ So was there a time when they were with you and you were seeing Mary before your wife

Yeah, I 'ad 'em, I 'ad 'em with me on, on Dowling Road.

TJ Right.

And Mary kept, and Mary kept coming up every other day to see me and see me kids. She found out I was with somebody else. So she thought right I'll get me kids back. I weren't gonna argue wi' 'er, 'cos I'd settled down and she were nice, she were great - Mary with kids. And one day she come up - she came up arguing she'd already took the kids back and she came up arguing. And Mary answered door. I were out me. And me ex-wife, ex-girl smacked Mary straight between eyes.

TJ Did she?

Because she said, er she's supposed to 'ave said something to middle one, Martin [?], and she didn't say anything malicious, you know what I mean?

TJ Yeah.

She came up, knocked on, knocked on door, she opened door, she smacked 'er straight between eyes. So I says, "right, leave it with me", I says. "No", she says, "I'll see to it." Because I, I wanted to fetch 'er back, and let 'er do same to 'er what she's done to 'er, but it'd 'ave all been 'bitty batty' you know what I mean? Anyhow, er, it's all, it"s all seen to. I'd love to 'ave me daughter back, 'cos she might turn round when she's 18. She might want to come back and live with me, 'cos I've even said to Mary, I said "if, if our Katie ever come, asked to come and live "ere with me", I said "would you?" She said, "'course I would." 'cos she's always wanted a daughter. And she's known my daughter since she were, since she were little.

TJ So you sound as if - it sounds as if it all was over very reasonably. But how did you feel about losing your children?

It, well it 'urt me, but you've got to live with it, you can't do nothing about it. You can not go arguing. If you still, if you go arguing, she's gonna go to court and she's gonna stop me from seeing kids. She don't stop me from seeing kids at all now. We even talk. But Mary, Mary don't like it. If I'm talking to 'er, "what you talking to 'er for?" I said, "there's nothing in it na." I said, "it's gone. I said "I've been living with you 11 years so what 'ave I got to talk to, talk to 'er about?" I said, "Our time is finished", I said, "I'm talking to 'er 'cos me kids are there." I said, "I'm not gonna argue and show me kids up, upset me kids."

TJ They're on the estate are they?

No they live at, er Pentlow Grange.

TJ Right. But do they come here?

Me daughter - me daughter and me eldest lad - they go to Highfield school. Other one goes to [inaudible] school till 'e's old enough to come to Highfield. But er, me daughter, she's stops down at 'er friends 'ere at weekends, on estate down - on new estate down 'ere. I see 'er every Saturday.

TJ Mmm.

She comes looking for me. I don't go looking for 'er, she'll come and look for me. If she wants me she'll come and get me.

TJ So you just see her incidentally?

Just see her incidentally yeah. She knows where I live. But she's shy in coming in to 'ouse in case Mary says anything. But Mary loves 'er. She's, she"s really fond of Katie. Because she lost a daughter, Mary.

TJ Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. You said just now that you were nearly violent with 'er. She kind of wound you up a lot.

Oh, if she came up - oh I couldn't - if I'd 'ave done it, I'd 'ave, I'd 'ave, I'd 'ave been in prison.

TJ Yeah.

She was evil to me.

TJ You just bit your tongue?

Many a time I 'ad to bite my tongue. It were alright for 'er to go out, but not for me to go out.

TJ Yeah.

Came 'ome one night after we'd been for a drink and all me clothes were outside. Scattered all oer garden. All oer road. Just 'cos I'd been out and come back - come back about an hour late, hour and half late.

TJ Yeah.

That's because, er, because she wanted to get out. See I, I told 'er I'd be back for 10 o'clock, so she could go night clubbing.

TJ Yeah.

But I didn't get back while 1/2 past 11.

TJ Yeah.

So 'er friend 'ad gone.

TJ Yeah.

And she couldn't go.

TJ I see.

So all my clothes were outside on street.

TJ Yeah.

But she still went.

TJ And what did you do?

I let 'er go. I just, I just picked all me clothes and put 'em back in. I said "it's your turn now", I said, "I'm gonna throw your clothes out."

TJ Did you?

No.

TJ (laugh).

And - she ended up - she ended up going out.

TJ Yeah.

She come back about 1/4 to 6.

TJ Yeah. Yeah.

You know from night club. And night club closes at 2 o'clock.

TJ Yeah.

Get out for about 1/2 past 2, 1/4 to 3, get a taxi.

TJ Yeah.

1/4 to 6 she walked in. I knew what she'd been up to. But er, I knew it were coming to an end.

TJ Yeah. Yeah.

I just bit me tongue. I says, "that's it." I got me suitcases, come up to me mam, "hi ya mam I'm 'ome." And that were it. Ever since then.

TJ Right. That was the

That was, that was the day it ended.

TJ Or the night when it ended.

It was a day when it ended. I'm a qualified referee. I've been refereeing 20 year na. And she wanted to go out this special weekend, 'cos she'd found a chap. And I were living at me mam's. And I said "I've 'ad 'em this weekend, it's your turn to 'ave 'em this weekend." Anyhow I'm refereeing - all 3 kids on touch line with a suitcase. "Buy, see you at weekend." I couldn't do nothing about it. I couldn't stop football match. And she left 'em wi' me.

TJ Yeah.

My mother went barmy. She'd gone away. She'd been away - gone away for dirty weekend. But er, that's by and by, and that's when [a tear fell?] I'm back 'ome. I knew where me bread's buttered. I knew me mother 'ad 'ave me back.

TJ Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was after the night clubbing

Mmm. Mmm.

TJ That was the final

yeah that was the final one yeah.

TJ Yeah. OK. Alright. I've got a sense of a - of that. Can I just also ask a few questions about em, your relations with your family? Your brothers, sisters. Em, your a twin aren't you?

(192) I'm a twin.

TJ What was it like growing up in such a large family with

it were great, you"d, you"d two sets of twins. You know wi" us being a big family, and everybody, and all at school, all used to come 'ome at 10 to 4. We, we always used to race 'ome for cow pie, what we used to call cow pie, you know big meat - get a big tin like that, me mother, and she"d put cup in so all crusts come up. Big meat potato pie - that's when we 'ad coal fires as well. Do you remember coal fires?

TJ I do.

They were the best fires that we've ever 'ad, and we all used to race 'ome at tea time, to see who got (laugh) biggest plate and everything. We used to 'ave some right arguments to see who got (laugh) biggest plate! And "is there, is there any more, is there any more?" It were brilliant. And sleeping arrangement - 'cos it - it were, it were one, it were a 3 bedroomed 'ouse, between 10 of us. Well me mum and dad 'ad got their own room

TJ Yeah.

So we'd 3 double beds in one room, 'cos there were 2 daughters, there were 2 girls you see. Well it were brilliant.

TJ (laugh).

There were - one, one, two, there were six of us. Three in one double bed, no two, two in each double bed.

TJ Yeah.

And in, well, you know then, we were skint. [TJ: Yeah] In the 60s we were skint.

TJ Yeah.

And to get a, to get a blanket to get covered up were unbelievable. To get big, big, big over coats.

TJ Yeah, yeah.

What me mother used to do, you, you know plates in oven - she used to put some bricks in. Get bricks out - t"warm bottom, warm bottom of the bed. And get plate out of oven, wrap it up in a er, a, a, a sheet and put it in bottom of bed, so stretch your feet out. And it were, it were, it were 'orrible in the morning 'cos it were freezing cold.

TJ Yeah.

Y"know, plate and brick. There were no double glazing, no central 'eating or anything. All we, all we lived for were coal fire.

TJ Yeah.

And me dad used to get up every morning, make s-sticks out of paper.

TJ Yeah.

About 6 o'clock. Used to get fire blaring out before we get up about, about 1/2 past 7, 1/4 to 8. Always used to run down for a cup of tea, run at side of fire. It, tremendous. They were tremendous years. But ever since that, you know when you get a family as big as, as we 'ave?

TJ Yeah.

You'd think all the family 'ld keep in touch. You know like every year, a get together. My family's never seem to 'ave done that.

TJ Why do you think that is?

Pardon?

TJ Why do you think that is?

I don't know. We've all grown up together and never met.

TJ Yeah.

But I've - I see me twin.

TJ Yeah.

Once a month.

TJ You see your twin once a month?

Or, or sometimes once a fortnight. 'e'll come up into club to see me.

TJ Right. Is he on the estate?

No is on t'er - well 'e is - 'e's a bit further down road. It's like off Norton Street, Fordham Street 'e lives on.

TJ Right.

When "e comes up 'e'll 'ave a drink - I'll sit in lounge and 'e'll go in concert room. Not sit wi' me, or I won't sit wi' 'im.

TJ Why's that?

I don't know. See it's the same with other set of twins.

TJ (225) Yeah?

They're, they're same. There's, there's, there's no personality there at all.

TJ You mean you don't feel very

You don't, you don't feel very close to each other. But 'e's me twin.

TJ Was it always like that?

We used to fight like cat and dog. Used to love each other.

TJ Yeah.

Er, since we've started growing, growing up, er, we've never 'ad a get together while I've, while I've been 'ere. Me grandma's still living. Me grandma's 96.

TJ I know.

Me mother's got 30 - I don't know if it's 36 or 38 grandkids. She knows every one of the birthdays, and she sends every, everyone a card. I've got a sister what lives in another northern city - I 'aven't seen 'er for 4 year.

TJ She lives where?

In another northern city.

TJ You haven't seen her for 4 years?

Four year. Me other sister, me eldest sister, she's gone overseas.. She's coming back in August, she's entitled, she's allowed 2 holidays a year. So she's coming 'ome in August and she'll be coming 'ome at Christmas. 'er lad is in army.

TJ Yeah.

And er 'e's having trouble with 'is little daughter. She's been in - since she's only about 3 months old, she's 'ad about 10 operations, try and keep 'er alive. And she's worrying about that and everything. But, I've got another sister, she just lives on Watermill Crescent - I don't know 'ow she's grown - she's just grown, she"s just, just turned into such a liar. She was there - I used learn 'er to - I learnt 'er to walk when she were a baby. And she's grown up, she's grown up to be a big 'ead and such a liar. I 'ate 'er.

TJ You hate her?

It's me sister.

TJ Mmm.

And I 'ate 'er. For the things she does. She's such a liar.

TJ Give me an example of what you mean?

I can't stand 'er. I'll talk to 'er.

TJ No but, I'm not sure what you quite mean.

Well she says things what's she done, and she 'an't done.

TJ Oh I see.

It's like she's got a bank book of my mother's.

TJ Right.

She's got a bank book of my mother's. And she's forged my mother's signature to draw some money out of this bank book. Na that to my, to my - is evil woman. And to do it to 'er own mother: "I'll look after your bank book." Forging 'er signature to draw money out.

That's the only one in the family I 'ate. I love everybody else.

TJ Yeah.

But er, it's funny - it's funny as well. I've 3 brothers wi' mousy 'air and I've 3 brothers with ginger 'air, and them 3 with ginger 'air are all bald.

TJ Yeah. Yeah.

It's unbeliev - two sets, the other set of twins, they are identical. You could not, you could not tell them apart.

TJ Yeah.

They're identical. Them two get on great with each other. I get on great wi' 'em. But one of twins, 'cos they all go to see me mother at weekend, bar one. My oldest brother Elliott. 'e don't 'ave anything to do wi" mother. Why, I don't know. 'e's got a car, it's 2 minutes to me mothers.

TJ Yeah.

But we never seem to all click and all meet at one, all go to me mother's at one, at one time. Which to me is, is fantastic, to come, everybody to meet up and all go to see me mother. And have a laugh a - sit, and go there for an hour or two and 'ave a laugh of the times we've 'ad.

And we've 'ad some great times.

TJ Yeah. Yeah.

We've 'ad some great times.

TJ Your twin is not identical - your twin?

Yeah I'm identical, yeah, yeah.

I wish I could get me missus to get a photo, so we've got photos.

TJ So of all of your brothers, you see your twin every now and again - there was a brother you said you hadn't seen for 18 months

That's Danny that.

TJ Yeah.

But 'e's started to come back round.

TJ Right.

You see, 'e's been, 'e's been, 7 day a week, works 7 days a week because 'e's self employed.

TJ Yeah.

'e 'as to work 7 days a week.

TJ Yeah.

Look after 'is family. Which I appreciate. And eh, er I caught 'im last week at me mother's. And 'e's started coming back. 'e's started coming to see me mam a bit. 'e just stopped once. Well, 'e's started coming back. I see me mother every day.

TJ Why haven't you seen your sister in another northern city? Four years is a long time.

She's 'ad a few problems, me sister. She's got - she's 7 kids na. She's 'ad 3 mis-carriages and a cot death.

TJ Mm Oh dear. That's bad.

And she flit from 'ere and moved and moved and moved. Been once to see 'er in another northern city. I said "na don't move again and we'll come and see you again." "I'm moving." See, you know Cablewick area where she used to live. She used to live in Cablewick area in Another Northern City and that's not a very nice place to go. But she loves it there. She met a chap in Northern City what come from Another Northern City, and went wi' 'im and they've been together ever since.

TJ Yeah.

TW But er (pause)

TJ You mentioned that em, you were close to your father?

Oh yeah.

TJ Do you - how about your mother?

I'm close to me mother, yeah. I'm very close to me mother. (Louder) But's there's one thing I don't ever do to me mother. I've never give 'er a kiss.

TJ That's interesting.

I never - I don't know why. I never - I go an see 'er every - I never. Little Keith, me little son. 'e stops at me mother's at weekends. What I do - she's a pensioner. So what we do, we go to supermarket and get her groceries in for weekend, or for week. And er, our Keith stops. I do that. Me sister what's round corner, what's a liar. She takes 'er 3 kids round, "look after kids while I go to work." She never gives 'er a penny.

TJ Mmm.

And I feel - and me mum says "don't say nowt, 'cos if she starts. I know you buy me stuff." I buy 'er stuff every weekend. Well Mary does it as well, she goes to supermarket and gets me mother's weekend groceries in. For 'er Sunday dinners, she, she gets a roast and that. She can't make Yorkshire pudding me mam. So we buy them pre-packed

TJ yeah

buy a couple of pre-packed and 2 big ones, one for me mother, one for Keith. But er, I've never - I'll take 'im, I'll give me son a kiss before I go. I say "be a good boy for nan nan na." But no, I've never kissed me mam.

TJ Even when you were young?

Even when I were young. I just don't know why.

TJ Has she ever kissed you?

She might have done when I've been, when I"ve been in bed.

TJ Yeah. But otherwise.

To 'ave kissed goodnight, otherwise

TJ no?

er, I don't know why.

TJ Do you think - did she not kiss any of you?

Oh yeah. Well all all family kiss me mother when they come to see 'er. They all give 'er a kiss.

TJ Yeah.

I never do. I don't know why. I've never - I 'ave never done it (emphatic).

TJ Yeah.

It's so strange.

TJ What it was that interested me in that bit, was the kiss you didn't give your father.

Yeah. That's what it was, yeah. Well, er, er, but, with me not kissing me dad and me seeing me dad, in me dream. Well no, it weren't in me dream - I, I, I believe in ghosts because I saw my father. And it's, it never er (inaudible) in all the family who kiss me mother. But I just walk away.

TJ Yeah. And will she kiss all the rest of the family?

She does, aye.

TJ But not you?

But I- yes,well they all go up to 'er and give 'er a kiss. She won't give 'em a kiss back, no. They all go up and give 'er a kiss.

TJ Yeah, I see.

But I've never been up and give 'er a kiss. I say "I'll see you at weekend mam, 'ave a nice weekend." I've never done that. I go to see 'er every day.

TJ Yeah.

And talk to 'er.

TJ How did she cope though with such a big family? What kind of a mother was she? Was she strict? Or ...

Ooh strict! You never got 'er strict. Me father were strictest. Me father - me dad were ever so strict. Got a leather belt like that and a big brass buckle on t" end, and 'e said "if you're not in for 8 o'clock, you gets the strap. If you don't do as your told, you get the buckle." And we 'ad to be in 'ouse for 8 o'clock. I was in bed for 1/2 past 8.

TJ Mmm.

(326) And any murmur up them stairs - 'e used to run upstairs me dad. I thought, 'ere we go, get under, get 'old, get 'old of blankets and get covered up, 'cos we're gonna get whacked with his belt. (hesitation) And 'e used to come up and whack us with his belt.

TJ He did?

Oh, whaa, unbelievable, aye. But appreciated 'im for it because 'e knocked, 'e knocked us, 'e knocked sense into us, not to do it. But er, I, we were growing up, growing up, we 'ad some laughs. First, er, I started smoking and er, 'e knowed I'd been smoking. I were dying to 'ave a smoke in 'ouse in front of me dad (laugh). I said "I've got some cigs 'ere dad, do you want one?" He said "you know I don't smoke tipped cigarettes." He said "I know you do though." He says "so tha'd better get 'em out now and start smoking, 'cos I've seen ya smoking." So I started smoking in 'ouse, I thought I were right good.

TJ How old were you then?

I were er, 16 or 17. And I felt right good, you know smoking in 'ouse? And tipping ash into open coal fire. It were - I couldn't believe it, and I've 'ad some great times with my dad.

TJ Were you afraid of him though?

Yeah.

TJ Yeah.

We all were.

TJ Yeah.

'cos once - 'e were big, 'e were 6' 2", 6'3".

TJ Yeah.

And 'e were big. 'e were a big stocky fellah.

TJ Yeah. Did he used to use the belt on the girls as well as the boys?

No. He idolised the girls.

TJ Yeah.

Well, we 'adn't got our Tina - what lives on 'ere. She was only about 6 month when we moved up on this estate.

TJ Right.

But me eldest sister - 'e adored 'er. And she loved me dad.

TJ Mmm.

And they were - they were like that, them 2. They loved each other. She 'ad a nervous break down, like me, me sister. It really 'urt 'er.

TJ When he died?

Oh! Because I 'ad to go and knock me sister up. We lived on bottom of this end and me sister lived at top end.

TJ Right.

And got a phone call from next door, all of a sudden me mother starts. She's in a right state. I said "right." I went up to 'ouse about - it must 'ave been 1/2 past 2, 1/4 to 3 in the morning, knocking on door. I said "Shirley, come on love." She said "what's the matter?" I said "there"s a phone call." Well soon as I took 'er down street and me mother's roaring at door. She just burst into tears, screaming 'er 'ead off. She knew what 'ad 'appened. "They've took me dad, they've took me best pal away from me." And it - she ended up - she 'ad to move out of that 'ouse.

TJ Mmm.

'cos 'e wouldn't leave 'er alone. 'e were tormenting 'er.

TJ So did she have a break down while you had a break down?

She 'ad one bigger than me.

TJ Yeah.

She 'ad to get out of 'ouse.

TJ Yeah.

She still thinks, she's still there, she still talks about my dad na, as if 'e's still alive.

TJ Yeah.

"Nobody 'll come to, nobody 'll ever put my dad down". That close. Anyhow 'er marriage broke up. The kids were only about 14 or 15, 'er marriage broke up, 'cos she couldn't cope with me dad going. And that broke up. 'aving arguments with 'usband. 'e took 'is 'ook. Then she met this chap, who is unbelievable, Tim. Fantastic chap. Couldn't wish for a nicer chap. He"s took 'er on. They've been together about 10 or 12 year na. She's been all over world wi' 'im. With 'is job, you know 'is job. And she 'asn't got a care in the world na. She's probably still thinking about me dad. See them little bleeders on top of roof there? Just come off a roof. But er, still thinks about 'im. But she's so 'appy. She's really enjoying 'er life na.

TJ How long did that break down of hers last? You said yours lasted for months?

It did because it, can you can you imagine your parents you've lived wi' and one 'as got to leave you. And the one I loved. I did. I loved 'im. I love me mam. But I loved 'im, because I 'ad some laughs wi' 'im. I made my dad laugh. 'e made me laugh. He were, he were a well respected chap.

TJ Mmm.

They still talk about 'im in, in club where we go into na. "There were nobody, there were nobody better than your dad, your dad were fantastic." And it's nice to hear it from somebody else what's been out with 'im and boozed wi' 'im. And to 'ear 'em talk about, to hear him talk about your father, it's nice. Saying nice things, not bad things. It is very nice. But it, it it really 'urt 'er. She's still, she"s still feeling it now, although although he's been gone 20 years.

TJ How long did you say she was ill from it? Or ..

She never, ever since she split up with - I don't think, she's still there. It's still there. It is still there.

TJ Were your other sisters affected like that?

Er, our Christine. Our Christine, yes she were yeah. But she were like that, she - I love 'er, (inaudible) - she just went out of things - she'd tattoos all over 'er arm, on 'er 'ead and everything. She just was a waste of time and I love 'er. But she just went wi' wrong people. Got mixed up wi' wrong people. She were never at school. Kept fetching 'ome. Out going round (inaudible) - she were away 2 or 3 days. And finally she clicked. She got this chap, went to Another northern city, started 'aving kiddies. Then me mother - a few year ago - before me mother moved into this flat, she'd got er, found out she'd got jaundice. She were ever so yellow, me mother. And summat, I think it were 'er gall bladder, or gall stones, whatever it were. And it were me mother's sister what came up. She used to visit and she were laid on settee and she were yellow. And it it 'adn't 'ave been for 'er sister coming - to see my mother - to get doctor in, 'cos doctor rushed 'er straight into 'ospital. She 'ad a big operation. She'd 'ave been dead na, me mam. We'd 'ave 'ad no family, there would have been no parents.

TJ Mmm.

I can't understand why a big family like that, me mother had got 3 sisters, 3 brothers. I seen one of 'er uncles. I've never seen any others. I've seen all aunties (raises voice pitch). You know, me aunties? I've never seen any of their brothers. Just one of uncles. It's a big family and I can't understand - you see these big families - and they always seem to 'ave a get together every, every year don't they? You know Christmas? They don't, they don't visit at Christmas. They don't visit at Christmas. You know like you go round to 'ouses? (big intake of breath) You go round to your, your family's 'ouses?

TJ Mmm.

"Hi ya, everything alright?" Think we 'ad 2 visitors 'ere last year. But I ain't bothered. So long as my kids are 'appy, wife's 'appy at Christmas, I ain't bothered. Let 'em enjoy themselves. I'm not bothered if nobody comes to door.

TJ Mmm. Mmm.

But er I can never understand why it never 'it off. Because you can imagine na, if it started 'itting off na, can you imagine all grandkids and all kids, and all family getting back together, to find out how many we've really got.

TJ (laugh). Yes.

Wi' all us aunties and their kids and their kids. And me grandma's still alive. Ninety six year old.

TJ Yes. Have you thought you might try and

unbelievable. Well she's in 'ospital. She's in one of rest wards na. You know wi' her age?

TJ Yeah.

I tell ya, she's still alive and kicking.

TJ Mmm. I want to come back to that period when you broke down after your dad died, if I may, because it's a term that describes a lot of different things to different people. So I wonder if you could just describe those 3 or 4 weeks when you were off work, what exactly was going on for you?

I couldn't go anywhere. I daren't go out. Like I said to you

TJ you daren't go out?

I didn't want to go out. I didn't want to go out. Well for one thing, everybody knew me dad, if I went out "sorry to 'ear about your dad." I (pause) just burst out in tears.

TJ Mmm. Mmm.

I wanted it to settle down, die down, I didn't want anybody talking to me.

TJ Mmm.

It were 3 week. And like I said, me mother told this chap, well it were one of me friends "come on let's go out, have a drink. We'll go somewhere out of town, where we don't, don't, where we don't" - instead of going to local, you know what I mean? So we went out of town. Well went to town, itself, in Northern City.

TJ Mmm.

Started picking up a little bit. Then I started - they said "are we going in local." I said "no, not yet." I said we'll go in there, if they start "sorry to 'ear about your dad." I'd just 'ave to leave it and come out. So I gradually built meself up. Stopped coming down town, started going back into locals, and it worked from that. And then I accepted it, that me dad 'ad gone. I couldn't fetch 'im back. There was no way 'e was gonna come back. And it built up from that, it's gradually gone on and gone on. I still think about 'im. I always gi' me little, I always give me arm a little rub and a little kiss. Go in bath and make sure I wash 'im alright. You know what I mean?

TJ During this time when you weren't able to go out. I mean, I wondered what you did and how your family responded? How your family

I - they, they knew the situation. I - I loved me dad, they loved me, er, (pause) I were alright in 'ouse. I were 'appy in 'ouse. As long as I 'ad something there, something to eat and that telly, I weren't bothered if I didn't go out ever again. Wouldn't 'ave bothered me one bit. It's it it is funny. 'cos I missed 'im that much and that's what 'urt me, with me not kissing 'im. And I don't know if that's where - with me not kissing me mam. 'cos I've never kissed me mam.

TJ Mmm.

And er...

TJ But you didn't miss him in quite the same way when you were in the house and you

No, I knew I were alright when I were in 'ouse.

TJ Yeah.

The only situation were, as soon as I got out of that door I know for a fact they were going to come to see me and say "sorry about your dad" and that - I couldn't 'ave coped with that.

TJ Yeah.

I wouldn't 'ave been able to cope wi' it.

TJ Yeah. Interesting, yes.

'cos to me sorry weren't enough. You know what I mean? Sorry's not enough. "Sorry to 'ear about your dad."

TJ Yeah.

It's - it's you can't say it, 'cos to me 'e were still there, you know what I mean?

TJ Did you sleep during this period?

Well yeah, until I saw 'im, until I saw 'im. When I told you I'd seen 'im.

TJ Yeah.

And that made me a bit 'appier that.

TJ Yeah.

'cos I'd say and he said "don't worry about it, I love ya."

TJ Yeah. Yeah.

And that's when I told me mother. I said I'd seen me dad and 'e's told me 'e loves me. Whether it (pause) whether it were a dream (speeds up) I don't know. But I know for a fact I saw me dad. Whether because I didn't give 'im a kiss

TJ yeah

and 'e knew I didn't give 'im a kiss

TJ yeah

'e came back. Said to me "don't worry about it I still love ya." And that put me mind at rest. But I still didn't go out for over 2 to 3 week. Thinking that I'd seen me dad

TJ yeah

and known for a fact 'e still loves me. Because what I were trying to do, I were trying to get - I tried to think about it, and waking up to see if I could see 'im again.

TJ Yeah.

Like to say "I'm sorry for not kissing ya."

TJ Mmm.

And I were praying and praying, going to sleep, waking up and seeing if 'e were at bottom of bed again.

TJ Yeah.

To tell 'im that. "I'm sorry I didn't give you a kiss, and I still love you." But that were great when 'e says "I still love you, don't worry about it."

TJ Yeah.

I'll never forget that day. Never.