Life story interviews - interview extract one

Study Title: Families, Social Mobility and Ageing, an Intergenerational Approach, 1900-1988

Information about interviewee
Date of birth: 1937
Gender: Female
Marital status: Married
Occupation: Personal service occupations
Geographic region: Birmingham
Interviewee's name: Mrs Jill Hunter
Interview ID: int071

Int.: Do you remember your grandparents?

JH: Yes.

Int.: Which side, your mother's side or your father's side?

JH: Well, both of them, because they lived close, so you'd go to see one and then the other the same... I think my father's parents, because I particularly liked that side of the family, even as a kid, they were sort of more fun. There was more going on in that house. Well, obviously, because she had 12 children, so there would be all my cousins and the house was.... it was a very... they were a family that had lots of parties and so there was more going on, so I obviously, as a child, liked that side of the family.

Int.: How often would you go and see them?

JH: Quite a lot actually. Perhaps not to sort a socialise in the evenings, when all the families got together, but specially in the day, 'cos my father used to work for his father, and the house... his workplace was built at the top of the garden, so when I was sort of old enough to go with my father, he used to take me down to work and I used to go and see my gran while he was working, so I did... and I used to like going down there to play.

Int.: Would you go with your sister and brother as well?

JH: No, just me. I was the one.... David would be too young - the time I was talking about. And my sister stayed with my mother, but I used to sort of go off with my father.

Int.: What kind of job was it?

JH: Silversmith.

Int.: And your grandfather as well, so that it passed from one to the other?

JH: Yes, he started it - my grandfather.

Int.: Has your father continued doing that?

JH: Yes, he's dead now. Yes, and my brother does it as well now. It's passed on. So it's three generations.

Int.: Do you remember whether your grandmother used to work?

JH: No. No. No. Believe it or not, even with 12 children, and her sister died, and her sisters husband couldn't look after the family, so she took her three children, and she had quite a lady's life, because the one used to.... as they grew up they all used to look after each other. And I can only really remember her always being dressed up, very very smart, with hair all piled on top and, yeah, for 12 kids, I mean.... I'm harassed.... I mean it was just... they say one looks after the others.

Int.: You said they had a lot of social life...

JH: Within the family. I mean the sisters... the children going, and they used to all get together, in fact I should my father was the quietest one of the lot, he never used to mix in with.... they used to like a drink and my father never drank. So we were there during the daytime, but only weddings and christenings and things like that, but they used to have a party every Saturday night, the whole family.

Int.: And you wouldn't go?

JH: No, no.

Int.: This was because your father didn't like it?

JH: No, no, they didn't, and course I was only young.

Int.: Did you go on holiday with them?

JH: I can remember... I can't remember when it was... but, we went to Blackpool illuminations, the whole family, this is my father's side, and they hired a coach and we all went on the coach to see Blackpool... but I thoroughly enjoyed it. Yes, the whole family went for the weekend.

Int.: Did you do it just once?

JH: Yes. Somebody suggested it and they booked up this hotel. I think they had the whole hotel at Blackpool, and we all went off for the weekend to see Blackpool illuminations. We all went in a coach - filled the coach. Aunties and cousins. There's a photograph actually. I think my brothers got it. A framed photograph where we all had to sit together, with me grandparents in the middle - everybody all standing round. A marvellous photograph. It really is.

Int.: How old would you have been then?

JH: I can find out all these sort a things...

Int.: Were you around ten or younger than that?

JH: Well, I can remember.... I might be a bit younger, yes, but I can remember it.

Int.: So it must have been soon after the war?

JH: Yes, it most likely was.

Int.: You were born in '37 or something like that?

JH: Yes.

Int.: Do you remember whether your grandparents seemed very old to you when you were a child?

JH: Well they always do, don't they. My grandfather was very very strict, but my grandma, I don't think I would think of her as old, because I can... actually, thinking about her now, I can actually see her. I used to think how nice she was, what a nice old lady, I mean she was a very attractive old lady. You know how you get some very sort of stately.... her hair was sort of white and all piled on top, and she had little kiss curls that used to fall... and... I can remember all that. So I perhaps wouldn't think of her as old, 'cos I used to think how attractive she was. She used to lead quite a.... but from the age of about 30... I think they had quite a game to get her to Blackpool - she never went outside the.... she must have had this - what do they call it now - this phobia that people don't go outside of the house, frightened to go out. Because what happened, everybody used to do her errands for her, so she didn't... she didn't have to go to the shops, I mean she never went shopping or anything like... there was always somebody to run to the corner shop for her and everything, and she actually... I mean the toilet wasn't in the house, it was up the yard - as they used to call it. Well, that's as far as she went on the outside. She never went out of the front door, and she was, as I say, the most attractive... she'd obviously got this.... what is it... a phobia. They put it down to just awkward, lazy and all the rest of it, then.

Int.: There wasn't any family tale about how she developed this phobia?

JH: Oh no, no. She just sort of wouldn't go out. Everybody was doing her shopping and I think she perhaps got so used to sitting at home ordering everybody about, because she did, she sat in her chair and.... and yes, in the end she just wouldn't go.

Int.: What do you remember about your grandfather's personality, was he strict?

JH: He was very strict, very upright and he used to have a white moustache, and it always used to annoy me because he used to, if he had a drink, he used to get {missing} and I didn't used to like that. No, I don't think I was so keen on him as me gran. He was strict and he frightened me. When I think about it, not that strict, but he used to just.... sort of I used to be a bit nervous of him.

Int.: And what happened when you used to see him in the workshop with your father, how did he treat you then?

JH: Oh, alright.

Int.: He wasn't frightening then?

JH: Oh no, not if me father was about. I mean it was just perhaps if I went down - down into the house. Actually, I suppose it was just me, because he never did anything, he never sort of shouted, it was just perhaps that he'd got a brisk manner, and it just sort of. I suppose you'd have to if you'd brought up 12.... I mean, have some sort of control.

Int.: So apart from being with their kids and all the family, was there something else they used to do together. Did they have any interests, any hobby, any group of friends?

JH: No, I think it was virtually... my grandparents would be just all within the family. No, I can never remember any outsiders, no.

Int.: Do you know whether the neighbours popped in and were friendly with them?

JH: The next door neighbours, yes, but not for meals and things like that, just.... my grandfather owned the house next door, and they used to be his tenants, and they used to just pop in and she used to help look after my... she was a lot younger of course, Mrs. Owton, she used to pop in and do things for my grandma.

Int.: She would have helped her then?

JH: Yes. And I think they just used to pay a very very low rent. She had a bit of help off her as well.

Int.: What part do you think they had in your upbringing?

JH: Nothing.

Int.: Not even in terms of models, ideas you get from seeing how hard the people live?

JH: No, because I can remember them living... well, you know, not the sort of standards.... but food wise, very very well. And they were always.... no, I think they... he used to work hard, my grandfather. But of course he'd got his own business, so perhaps there was a little bit more money than perhaps... not a lot, but... no, there was no hardship that I know of, anyhow. I can't remember them having any outside interests apart from the family.

Int.: Did you used to spend some time with them individually, either with him or with her, on your own?

JH: No, because I think if I found my grandfather on his own I'd soon scurry out and find somebody else.

Int.: What about your grandmother?

JH: Oh, yes, yeah.

Int.: Could you confide in her?

JH: When I was very young. I wouldn't really have anything to sort of say.

Int.: How old were you when she died?

JH: Now, saying that, I did live with her when I was first married for a bit. Well, not with her, but in the two rooms upstairs. And I was married a couple of.... I think I'd been married... I had Mark when I was 23... I was 25 or 26 when she died.

Int.: So you actually lived with her?

JH: Yes, I got married very quickly, so we hadn't got much money, and my father said well, you can have the two.... because my grandfather had died by then, my grandma... I think she was 82 when she died... it all comes back now... 82, 'cos she died... she had cataracts on her eyes, and very bad, she went and had an operation, she died on the operating table, 82 she was. And my grandfather had died by then, and of course dad had inherited the firm, because he was the only one that worked with my grandfather, and the houses had to go with the firm because it was all sort of... they were only old sort of... attached. So to save for a deposit for our house, we went and lived there, we didn't pay any rent or anything like that. We lived there for a couple of years, while I was working, and my husband was working, and we saved for our first house, only two years. It was a nightmare. She was a cantankerous... she was 82. When I say nightmare... it wouldn't be a nightmare to me now, but you know when you're young and you're first married, she used to interfere with... I'd be cooking, and you know when they get old they've got no taste. I'd be out at work all day, I'd come home and I'd leave my stew on, and Mrs. Owton next door used to keep her eye on it, or she used to put it on for me, but my grandmother used to go in and keep on salting it, so by the time I came home... and you know they have no taste when they get... they lose their taste, it was uneatable. And of course we'd only got the two bedrooms upstairs and I used to have to keep all my kitchen stuff downstairs, which on the whole was OK, but milk she used to use and water down, so I didn't know. No need for it. My coffee, it was this liquid coffee then, you're going back some years - Camp, I think it was, and she used to have that and water it down, so I wouldn't know. The times I said to her look gran, I don't mind you having my... just use my coffee and the milk, but don't water it down. Things like that used to sort of get on your nerves, but apart from that.... And then she used to lock all up at night, then we used to come in and she'd be going very deaf, and we used to come in at night at about 12 o'clock, and we couldn't get in, she'd put the bolts all on the front door, and back door would all be locked up, we'd be knocking... I suppose it was quite interesting when you think about it.

Int.: Was your mother working?

JH: No.

Int.: So it wasn't a case of your grandmother having to look after you?

JH: Oh no, no.

Int.: Do you ever remember your grandparents taking an interest in your schoolwork?

JH: No.

Int.: Did you spend time talking?

JH: Oh yes, like all grandparents - what have you been doing today and what.... but I can't remember them taking any interest in..... I mean they had so many grandchildren.

Int.: What do you remember of your other grandparents?

JH: Well, not a lot really. 'cos I seemed to go.... going down with my mother and my mother used to shop down there, I can never think why, but she used to go all that way to shop with her mother, and I used to go to the shops with them. And of course she used to spend a lot of... when my grandfather died, my mother's mother used to spend a lot of time... she used to come up to see... to see us.

Int.: Do you remember how many brothers and sisters your mother had?

JH: Yes, five. Three girls - one died, Dora, that's how I come to have the middle name Dora. And two brothers, David and Frank. My mother was the eldest.

Int.: We are talking about your grandmother coming to see you when your grandfather died? Would she do it very often?

JH: Oh every week... every weekend, every Sunday for dinner.

Int.: What was your grandparents' health like? Do you know whether they were very active up until the day they died or whether they had any particular illness?

JH: No, my mother's mother was very... apart from she went deaf, but I mean then you're talking about an old lady, I think she was 70 something when she died, about 76, but that's just a guess. Her hair was as dark as yours is now, when she died. She hadn't got a grey hair. Amazing. Now my grandfather, my mother's father, all I can remember of him was sitting in the chair by the fire, never saw him move. Yet he was a sailor and he wouldn't go out at night, and my grandma used to go out every night for a drink, and he used to.... they used to have these big black leaded grates, and they used to cook with them, and I can always remember he used to just sit in a chair, very quiet, poke the fire occasionally.

Int.: Would he talk at all?

JH: No, no, not a lot. There again I didn't spend a lotta time there, I was always down.... if I went with my mother we were either going shopping, so pick my gran up and then we'd go shopping, and then we'd come home. Or if my mother was going to stay there and perhaps help her with her housework - this is when she was getting a bit older - I used to go round to my other gran's.

Int.: Do you remember who your grandmother was going to have a drink with? You said she went out every night?

JH: Oh yes, but it was only sort of she'd sit there with one glass all night. Just round the local, with all the neighbours.

Int.: What do you remember about her, was she a nice woman?

JH: Yes, very sweet little person, a bit like... apart from my mother being fair, and my grandma was dark, very quiet and seemed sort of.... Now, my sister would have a different tale to tell you about that grandma. Because she was very close, my eldest sister, she was very close to that grandma, and I think perhaps that might have been the problem, she might have made a lot of fuss of June, so I got a bit.... Because June was always quieter than I was. She was four years older than me, and she was always very quiet and nice and helpful and that. And she used to often go and stay with my grandma for weekends. She used to love going down there. Whereas I went to the other side. And that carried on right to..... So June would have a different tale to tell.

Int.: Do you remember when your grandparents started getting a bit old and ill, whether they had anyone to look after them, or whether they actually looked after themselves up to the end?

JH: I was there in the evenings, so she wouldn't be there at night, but she was very well..... course my grandma was alive... so she always looked after... they were very well looked after by one or other... they all seemed to live close, not my parents, they've moved away, but most of them were in the same district and they were always popping in, and like the daughters and that. Yeah, very very close. She was very well looked after, my gran, right to the bitter end.

Int.: And that's the same for the other one as well?

JH: Oh yes. Yes.

Int.: So it would have been mainly family looking after them?

JH: Oh yes, nobody else, never went into hospital.

Int.: What was their financial situation? Were they self-sufficient do you think, or did your parents have to help them?

JH: Once my grandfather died, he left the business to my father, and my father paid all the bills and everything, for my grandma. But that was on the understanding she hadn't got any money of her own. She never used to have housekeeping or anything, she just... I don't think anyone would perhaps... I mean I wouldn't put up with it, but I mean she had everything she needed, but I think my father started to give her a bit of money for herself. And the lady next door, Mrs. Owton, of course, she used to go and look after gran, right... cook her breakfast for her and do everything.

Int.: Mrs. Owton was still a tenant?

JH: Oh yes, right to the day they died, because they were father's tenants then after .. They sort of just faded away.

Int.: So when your grandfather died your grandmother was provided with everyone by your father?

JH: Oh yes.

Int.: What about her lifestyle?

JH: I can remember her as very nice, smart, a bit like Queen Victoria, upright and hair all.... Yes, I can remember her like that. Perhaps that's why I went down, you never know, because I've always liked somebody who looked after theirselves.

Int.: And what about the other side, your father's side, - financially?

JH: No, I shouldn't say they ever went short of anything, but.... Just sort of very ordinary, I suppose my mother perhaps would help, no doubt she would.

Int.: Your grandfather had been a sailor. Had she worked as well, your mother's mother?

JH: Not when I knew her. I don't know whether when she was first married... wouldn't even know what she did. I mean I'm talking about the time, now, when he was.... I can't remember anything, because mum was a kid then, I wasn't born then. No, no. I can only ever remember them as grandparents. So I don't know whether gran....

Int.: Did their money come from just his pension?

JH: Oh yes, and he was so mean. This is my mother's ... he was so mean, that he saved, but he was doing it so my grandma would have a bit of money, I suppose, when he went. You're only talking about a few hundred. I suppose she'd have a pension, wouldn't she. But she never went short anyhow. 'Cos she always had holidays. She was always a one when my grandfather died... she started... 'Cos we used to laugh about it, started to live then, because she used to go off on these old age pensioners trips and holidays, 'cos we always .. I know my father used to pull her leg something wicked, saying oh, now he's gone you're really... because he was a real miserable old.... he'd never take her out or... and he was tight, terribly tight with her. But there again, she had a good time on his money for... there was a few hundred then, she could travel with that. She spent every penny of it. She had holidays. I suppose that little bit of extra money supplemented her pension. So she had a good time.

Int.: Do you ever remember if you went to your grandparents' funerals?

JH: No. No.

Int.: Do you remember any great uncle or great aunt? Was there, in your family, any old person you remember?

JH: Aunts, do you mean, like me father's....?

Int.: Your father's sisters or brothers or someone else?

JH: Oh yeah. Well they're all down there; they're all there, just like ordinary uncles...

Int.: But were they kind of old enough?

JH: Oh yeah, yeah. Just like any other aunt... we used to visit... we used to visit my mother's sister a lot. Mum used to take June and I there one week in the school holidays, or whatever, and the aunts used to bring her kids to our house one week, just like I did with my sister, when we got married and had kids.

Int.: So the family was quite important in all your gatherings?

JH: Yes.

Int.: Your father was born in 1907 and he was working with your grandfather. Your mother was born in 1909. Do you know whether she had a job either before or after she got married?

JH: Yes, before. Never afterwards. My father didn't believe in women.....she worked in a bank before she was married. I think she was on the counter.

Int.: She must have had quite an education?

JH: I don't know, I can't.... she's not dim, my mother. She's quite a bright little lady. No, I should say ... because when you got married in those days, a woman had to give her job up. My mother definitely... the day she... when she was getting married, her job was finished. She couldn't have kept that... no, they didn't employ married women in the bank. I think she had my sister anyhow, nine months... virtually nine months to the day of getting married. 'Cos grandfather used to say I hope she doesn't have a premature birth because you know... how neighbours talk, it doesn't matter these days, but then... she had my sister nine months to the day of the wedding.

Int.: Did she ever regret not working anymore?

JH: No, no. But believe it or not, she goes down and helps my brother now - 70 something - yeah, and loves it. In fact, looking back, we often talk, my sister and I, when we'd grown up, 'cos my mum did like looking after us, she was one of these believed you should be at home with your kids, and all the rest of it. But after that, I mean there was years and years left, where she could have gone and helped my father doing the books... she does the books for David. And she'd have loved to have been involved.

Int.: But he wouldn't let her do it?

JH: Well, he... I don't suppose it ever entered his head, and mum wouldn't push it. But she goes down and does all David's books and everything, for him. And she likes it, it keeps her active and they're all very nice to her. Make a fuss of her.

Int.: How many people did your grandfather employ?

JH: There was my father, and then there was my father's eldest brother - Charlie used to work for him a bit, but he couldn't stand it, so virtually it was my father and my grandfather, most of the time, I should say. Then my father's younger brother went and worked for them as well.

Int.: So it would never be more than three people?

JH: No. Dad even had to leave during the war because they wouldn't allow small businesses, so he worked at Lucas's during the war. They're closing it down now in Birmingham, it's a car accessory place, a factory. War stuff they'd be doing then - bombshells, things like that.

Int.: Do you remember when your father took over the factory whether he had people working for him?

JH: He didn't take it over until my grandfather.... grandfather kept tight reins on everything until the day he died. He wouldn't even have a telephone or anything put in the factory. He used to say if people want us and want our stuff, they'll come - and they did. It had a very very good name. They made spoons, cutlery... and they did. Can you imagine that, couldn't be that arrogant, could you, but in those days... only spoon manufacturer in Birmingham. All the others are in Sheffield, like they are now.

Int.: So it was a very good business?

JH: Oh, a very good living, yes. He never paid my father hardly anything - ten shillings a week. He had to work for every penny he got. And because dad didn't drink with them, but if he'd have been a drinker like all the others, they used to go next door with him, into the pub next door, and he used to hand them ten shillings outright, for doing nothing, just because they were.... my father didn't drink, you see. Yes, he even had to go to work in the morning before he got married, on the Saturday, had to do a few hours work.

Int.: Do you ever remember your father talking about the job, did he like it?

JH: I always thought he didn't, 'till he was dying..... I always thought.... but my mother always said the happiest time was when he worked at Lucas's with other men. With more people. Yes, in the war, at Lucas's, just for a few years. She always reckoned he was happier then.

Int.: What do you think made him unhappy. Having always to work with the same people, or the actual job?

JH: Oh, the actual job, I think. But I can never remember dad as sad, he just... in fact, when he was dying, and I used to go up every day and look after him. I was very very close to my father. And he'd talk and he'd say I never liked spoons, but that could have been because he was ill, but there again, I wished I'd have done something....

Int.: So your mother worked before getting married and she is now working, but in between she hasn't worked?

JH: Oh no.

Int.: So she always looked after you?

JH: Oh yes, my goodness, if you came home from school and you shouted mum, and there wasn't an answer, ooooh. She was always there, when I came home from school,... and you know, perhaps you've done the same yourself, you go in and I used to shout mum, and if she didn't answer - oh, oh.

Int.: Is there any particular aunt or uncle you remember best?

JH: Violet. Auntie Violet. She was the closest. Because she came to live by where we were living, about three doors down, and I used to go down and see her, as a kid. Help her with her housework, you don't help your mother, but you help your auntie down the road. But not to go out with, but just to sort of go in the house with her. But she worked all her married life. Sunday I used to go down and help her with her housework. She was a butcher's assistant.

Int.: And she had a husband?

JH: Oh yes. And the person she worked for was a great friend. The butcher.

Int.: You don't remember about the others?

JH: Only as ordinary aunties, seeing them...

Int.: Your sister June was born four years before you. What kind of education did she get?

JH: Ordinary, and then I think she went to secretarial college. It wasn't a college - my parents had to pay for about the last year - shorthand and typing college. In town somewhere.

Int.: And she worked after that?

JH: Yes, until she had Janice.

Int.: How many kids has she had?

JH: Janice, Paul, Neil and the twins - five.

Int.: What's the name of the twins?

JH: Jane and Anne.

Int.: How many kids have you had?

JH: two. Mark and Simon.

Int.: Did you have the same kind of education as your sister?

JH: No, I went to ordinary school and left school at 15 - hairdressing. No, I didn't like school at all.

Int.: Have you had any occupation after that?

JH: Hairdressing. I used to be a hairdresser.

Int.: Have you been doing it for long?

JH: Yeah, right from... I left school, 'till I got married, and then after I married, until I had Mark - that's my eldest son. And then I used to... when I was having Mark, you can work so long in hairdressing because of standing and that - then I bought a hairdryer and I used to do it at home. Only until Mark was about seven, and then I decided I'd had enough. I'd got Simon then - 'cos there's five years difference between them.

Int.: Has your brother got kids?

JH: Yes, he's got three.

Int.: And he's doing your father's job now?

JH: Yes, silversmith.

Int.: Did he have a different education to yours? Did he go to other schools?

JH: Yes, they did give him a private education, and he hated it, so they had to send him back to an ordinary school. He hated the uniform, and it was right the other side of town, and mother used to take him - Greenmore College, Edgbaston - and we were living in Sutton then, she used to take him and when she got home he was on the doorstep. He used to get home before her. Made himself ill. That was purely because he didn't like the uniform and he wanted to go with his friends. I don't think you could count a couple of months at private school as an education.

Int.: Do you know why he was sent to a private school, and not the two of you?

JH: Well, I definitely wouldn't have wanted..... I don't suppose they could afford it when we were......

Int.: He was younger than you, and they were better off?

JH: Oh yes, 'cos.... I'm eight years older than David, and very likely my grandfather had..... 'Cos he did keep a tight rein... I mean, there was never any extras, I mean we weren't.... but I can remember wanting things and I always had them, but I always had to wait. He did the best he could.... I remember wanting ice skates for ages, and he said I'll get them as soon as I can. But I think I had to wait a couple of years for a pair of ice skates of my own. You got the things, but you just had to wait.

Int.: Do you remember roughly how many years you lived in the house you were born in?

JH: I was born in the house, and I lived there 'till I got married. They moved just after I got married.

Int.: How old were you when you got married?

JH: Nearly 19.

Int.: Can you describe this house a bit?

JH: It was just an ordinary semi detached, just two smallish rooms downstairs, and a kitchen, a hallway, a little tiny sort a hall. Stairs at the side, two bedrooms and a box room, separate toilet and a bathroom.

Int.: So you had to share your room with your sister?

JH: We used to sleep in a double bed together and then I objected, I didn't like sleeping with anyone, and so then I had the box room, and then when David was born and wanted a bedroom, I went back in with my sister, and then when he was a bit older he used to get in with us, David, he used to like to get in, so I then moved back into his room and he slept with my sister.

Int.: How old were you when you first objected to sharing the room with your sister?

JH: I don't think it was actually sharing. I used to like to sleep alone. It wouldn't be my sharing with her, because she used to be quite a good sister as I can remember. She used to tell lovely stories in bed. I just didn't like sleeping with anyone. No, I used to like my own bed. In fact I suppose I was an awkward little so and so. I was the naughty one in the family, I think.

Int.: Did your parents own this house or was it rented?

JH: No, they'd bought it. A mortgage.

Int.: Did you ever have any lodgers or relatives living there for a while?

JH: No, no. The only.... yes, only for a few weeks, when my auntie, I can remember, sold her fish and chip shop, and until the new place she was having was ready. I think they stayed a few weeks. Auntie Laura.

Int.: Did you ever have anyone to help your mother in the house?

JH: No.

Int.: Can you tell me who did the cooking?

JH: Mother. I can remember doing the odd thing when my mother went in hospital, I looked after them for a fortnight, and cooked, but that was the only time.

Int.: Otherwise it would have been her?

JH: Yeah, running the house. You'd perhaps help when you got a bit older, or if.... but no, I should say mum did all the housework.

Int.: And the shopping?

JH: Yeah.

Int.: Who did the decorating or improvements?

JH: I suppose dad would. I can't remember who did decorating. I should think dad.... mind you, he never did anything later, so..... What I can remember, he used to have somebody, but then that was at the other house, but I can't honestly remember.

Int.: So what would he do at home?

JH: He loved gardening. He used to do the garden. He didn't do any housework. He always used to make the fire up in the winter, it was his first job - he used to come home from work, take his coat off, rake the fire, make it up, then he'd have his tea, so then the fire was all nice for when he came to sit down. I can always remember him doing that. It was a thing. No, they didn't go out a lot unless they were taking us out for the day. But I don't think there was a lot of money to.... I was 15 before he had a car. He used to go to work on a bike.

Int.: Was work very far away from the house?

JH: I should say about four miles. Ten minutes in a car.

Int.: So he used to the bike in all seasons?

JH: Oh yes, yes, and he used to put a cushion on the crossbar......

Int.: Did you have a fixed time to go to bed?

JH: Yeah, I think I could please myself, but I'm afraid I always went to bed early, so I was no problem.

Int.: Did anyone read you stories?

JH: Yes, my dad. He didn't read stories; he used to make them up.

Int.: And you used to like it a lot?

JH: Oh yeah.

Int.: What kind of stories were they?

JH: I suppose silly stories really. The stories my father told me, I told mine about it. He used to make the same story really, about a chocolate house, it'd all be eaten up, and somebody used to come along and eat the door and eat the.... you know, stories like that.

Int.: Did he used to do that with all of you?

JH: Oh yes. More often than not though, I was asleep in bed when he came in. He used to work late when I was a child. Nine o'clock dad used to work 'till. He hardly ever used to see us, but when he was there, yeah, he was marvellous with all of us.

Int.: Did you have a meal altogether?

JH: As we can got older, yes, and you could wait, but as I say he used to be working late.

Int.: So mealtime would be with your mother and the three of you?

JH: Yes. The only time we ever sat down, altogether, would be Sunday lunchtime.

Int.: Were you allowed to talk at the table?

JH: Oh yeah. You couldn't do what you liked, but no, you could talk if you wanted to.

Int.: Was there something in particular you talked about?

JH: What I can remember of my childhood, would be to eat my tea as quick as I could, so I could get out to play, so that was me.

Int.: And your mother wouldn't object to that?

JH: No, no. Because we had a park right at the bottom of the garden, so I used to go there. Everybody would be waiting to play games in the park.

Int.: Then you went back and home and went to bed?

JH: Yeah.

Int.: Do you ever remember your mother baking or making jam?

JH: Oh yes. Don't forget, when I was young, the war.... and there was rationing, right until I was at work, 15, rationing was on, because I can remember... I mean my coupons to go and get the sort of sweets I wanted, with my money. There wasn't cordials and things like that, what there is now.

Int.: What would you eat at mealtimes?

JH: An awful lot of stews, as I can remember, 'cos I suppose the meat ration would go. It would be stew one day and then the stew used to have a pastry crust on the next day. Liver, an awful lot of offal we used to eat. I suppose economical meals, as I say, because I can't remember.... we never went without, but really stodgy I suppose. Steam puddings and apple turnovers and custard, and rice puddings and things like that.

Int.: Did you have a vegetable garden?

JH: I know dad used to keep chickens for eggs, at the bottom of the garden - only a few. I can't remember if he grew vegetables. I think it was all flowers. Apple trees and things like that, but flowers mostly.

Int.: Would you confide or talk to your mother or father, who would you talk more to?

JH: When I was older I suppose... I don't know... I was close to my sister when we were at home, because she was so different. I should imagine my father, if I'd got to tell anybody anything, but then.... no, I should say both, when I was young.

Int.: And then things changed when you got a bit older?

JH: I suppose I talked to my mother, but I think I was always close to my father. Maybe you could ask anything, you could have an open relationship with her, but there again she didn't know an awful lot, my mother. I mean when I started work at 15, it was... I could tell my mother more about things than what my mother... I mean my mother never sat me down and told me about the facts of.... she seemed to sort of.... I often used to go home after work and say to my mum, what does so and so... they'd been talking... and she'd say well, I don't know. That'd be my mother.

Int.: Was your father like that. How come you were closer to him?

JH: He did more with you when he was.... you couldn't buy toys so he used to make me loads of things, and my sister was very close to my mother, she was quiet like my mother and I was more outgoing. My father, when I was born, wanted a boy, that's how I come to be called Jill. He said well, if you can't be Jack, you'd better be Jo. So I've been told. And so he used to take me to football matches, I used to go to boxing matches with him, and I used to do everything he'd do with a son until David, and then when David was born, dad really had gone past that, he was a bit too...... well, not too old. He didn't have any social life apart from relations. No friends, like going out for meals and a drink. I never went to a restaurant for meals.

Int.: Did they ever go out?

JH: For a weeks holiday. They used to save all year round so he could take us for a week's holiday, in the summer, but that was ... oh we used to go the park and if there was a fair on, and relations, we'd perhaps go to tea occasionally, but it wasn't week in, week out affair. It was all just within the ..

Int.: Would the two of them go out together, without you?

JH: No, I can't ever remember them getting a babysitter and going.... no, no. If we went to the pictures, we'd all go, so it'd be something suitable for all of us.

Int.: Did your parents, do you think, bring you up to consider certain things as important?

JH: You couldn't be sort of cheeky, as close as I was to my father I used to have many a smack, because I'd cheeked my mother, and my mother never used to smack. I'll tell father when he comes home. So she used to tell my father when he came home, and then I had a smack. If they told me to come in at a certain time, I'd have to. Easy going but you couldn't stay out at night. And if I wanted to stay out on special occasions .. I mean this is 15 or 16, - if I wanted to get the last bus home from town, he'd be meeting me at the bus stop, but there again I wanted him to because I was so scared of the dark. I think they gave up on me education-wise, I just wasn't interested, I wasn't very...practical, yes.

Int.: Do you think they considered education very important?

JH: No, not as important as they do today. No, I don't think so. But there again, I wasn't interested, and they really let me get away with it. A bit easy.

Int.: Do you remember any particular occasion when you got punished?

JH: I remember being smacked loads of times. Those were for just ordinary...... naughty things, which I would have normally slapped my kids for there and then, and that's it.

Int.: How did you feel about being smacked?

JH: I didn't like it, but.... no, I suppose I felt hurt. I always thought my mother was against me, but this was purely because she always used to tell and then me father used to have to smack me. I mean if she'd have smacked me there and then, OK, but I think I was the only one that ever used to be smacked in the family. I suppose I deserved it.

Int.: Because the others were calmer?

JH: My sister was very quiet, June, she never used to do anything to warrant a smack. It was nothing bad, it was just perhaps you'd cheek her at the table or something.

Int.: What about David then. What kind of a relationship did you have with him?

JH: Very good.

Int.: Did you feel closer to him than to June?

JH: Yes, because of course I'm eight years older, so June would be.... she adored him as a baby, absolutely adored him, she was his second mother. He was just a little pest to me. I hadn't got any time for him - 'till he got to be about four, and then he used to trail after me everywhere, and I used to take him with me, it never used to worry me. We had a good relationship. We still have. He was a horrible little brother, but all little brothers are, aren't they. If you wanted him out the way when you were courting, you used to have to pay him, else he'd hang around. But that goes on now, doesn't it, so....

Int.: Do you know whether your parents saved any money for you?

JH: Yes, mum used to pay, I think it was 2/6d., I used to take to school for stamps, savings stamps. Yes, but I had a Post Office Savings book.

Int.: And were you allowed to touch it?

JH: No. No. No. Mind you, I do think I had... I wanted a bike when I was 15, and they couldn't really afford to..... I could have the money then for that, if I wanted one. I suppose I nagged and nagged until in desperation mum said well, have it. But you're not talking about a lot of money.

Int.: Do you know if they did the same for the others?

JH: Oh yes, we were all treated the same. Yes, if one got 6d, the other one would get 6d. If mum has to.... June always had a harder time, even when she was married, than me. I mean five kids and all the rest of it. But June was a bit short. So if mum treated her to something, she'd always give me exactly the same. And even now, if she gives one money for our birthday - we all get the same. David doesn't, 'cos he's got the business, so she just does it for June and I.

Int.: Do you know what arrangements your parents had about money. Did he give her all his money, or would he give her just enough, or did she have to ask him?

JH: What was mum's was mum's, and what was dad's was mum's as well. They used to have a joint account. But mum used to save out of the housekeeping, she always had her own money and she brought up June and I exactly the same - five shilling of your own money is worth £1 of...... to have your own bank account.

Int.: Was she the one who was actually managing the money at home then?

JH: Yes, I should say she was. Perhaps not later on in life, when dad.... but especially when we were children, yes.

Int.: Who decided about the purchase of furniture?

JH: They'd do that together.

Int.: But she actually had control?

JH: Yes, because I know my father was quite a.... he would have bought lots of things, where mum, sensible, would say oh no, we don't need it. Mum was a stabilising influence, really. I think dad would have spent his last penny.

Int.: Did they have to struggle to make ends meet?

JH: Oh I don't think they had it easy at first, but I think by the time David was perhaps about ten things started to look up, 'cos they could afford to send him to this public school, if he'd have stayed. So you don't do that with.... 'Cos I don't think education was that important to them, that they'd made themselves short or gone without to send you to... it wasn't that.

Int.: Did they mention that they were sacrificing themselves for you?

JH: No. No. No. No. Quite honestly, I'd have thought.... I mean I know differently now, but you never heard them discuss money. I thought we were alright. There was no question.... perhaps if they were struggling - there's no way any of us would have known.

Int.: Did they ever get financial help from anywhere?

JH: No. Never believed in HP either, my father. If you couldn't afford to pay, you got no rights to.... but that was an old fashioned belief. If you couldn't pay for it, you'd got no rights to have it, sort of thing. But I mean...

Int.: Was your father ever ill or out of work?

JH: He was ill before he died, of course, but no. Not during my childhood. He was ill when he was a boy. But no, no.

Int.: How about your mother?

JH: Yes, I can remember mum having pneumonia, which turned to pleurisy, would it be, when I was a child. I was about ten. The aunt that I said I used to go down and see used to come up and help her. Bath the kids and generally sort of be a help. Mum was in bed for quite some time, she was very poorly.

Int.: She was at home, not in hospital?

JH: Oh no, she was at home.

Int.: So you did have someone else to look after you?

JH: Yeah, but just sort of occasionally.

Int.: What kind of ideas about money did you get from your childhood?

JH: Really, when you live in these sort of houses, everyone's more or less on the same sort of.... I never felt poor. I never thought we were hard up. But I don't suppose we were really; we just had to be careful.

Int.: So you actually learned how to be careful.

JH: Yes, but I do spend. I am a spendthrift. I'm not a saver. I mean.... I do always have to keep a little bit because if ever she asked for my book to put some more in, I'd be ashamed if.... But, no, I spend most of my money on the kids - anything - top up what the father does, if they want something and he can't perhaps.... holidays, boats, and things like that. 'Cos I've always had my own money - off my mother. I'm not talking about a lot, I'm just talking about a few.... I've usually topped up, instead of him having to borrow and things like that, I pay the things for them.

Int.: So you were given a bit of pocket money?

JH: Oh yes. Six-pence I think.

Int.: What would you do with that?

JH: Used to be able to go to the cinema. I'd have my sweet ration with that.

Int.: Would you go to the cinema with your friends?

JH: Oh yeah.

Int.: Was there a special day when you did that?

JH: Saturday mornings.

Int.: There were children's shows then?

JH: Yes.

Int.: Did your parents play games with you when you were little?

JH: Oh yeah, yeah, tiddlywinks. Yes, all those sort of games.

Int.: Both of them?

JH: Oh yeah, we'd sit down, no tele. Used to have family games.

Int.: What would you do in the evening before going to bed? As a family, would you play cards, play games?

JH: Yeah. That's if dad was home. 'Cos he used to work late, you see.

Int.: Did you have a radio then, or a gramophone?

JH: Oh yes. Radio.

Int.: Would the family listen to that altogether?

JH: Yeah, but they weren't musical or anything like that. Didn't have a radiogram until they were much older and they moved to Sutton. 'Cos I can remember buying a radiogram, wireless and thingybob, and dad saying oh, that's nice. I was married then. And he went out and bought one the same. And he loved his records and things, but everything was later on in life he did all these things.

Int.: So when you were together you would all play?

JH: Yes, games, or....

Int.: Were there books in the house?

JH: No. We were very lacking on that side of.... no.

Int.: Do you know whether your brother or sister spent time reading?

JH: They might have. Encyclopaedias, I can remember those, but I can't ever remember opening them. But I can remember a shelf of those. I think my mother's still got them. But I can't ever remember opening them. I don't know whether June.... June might have read. But I don't think David.... I don't know.

Int.: But your parents didn't read?

JH: Only magazines, mum would perhaps buy the weeklies.

Int.: Did you have newspapers?

JH: Oh yes, yes.

Int.: Were you reading them as well?

JH: I don't think I read them as a child. Not newspapers. I can remember reading them at home when I was older, when I was living at home, 'cos I can always remember my father - he used to have the News of the World and People. Always remember I used to take the News of the World up and read it in the bath on Sunday morning, I can always remember being told off about that. Used to say bad enough reading the News of the World, but reading it in the bath... And my mother used to say well, you can soon stop that by not buying it, and then she wouldn't read it. But then you're talking about 16 or 17, a girl at work.

Int.: Did you have a particular celebration for your birthday, was it a particular day?

JH: Oh yes, you'd have a party, with all your friends, yes.

Int.: So you'd have your cake and things like that?

JH: Oh yes, yes.

Int.: So your friends were allowed at home?

JH: Oh yes, I could take anyone home.

Int.: Were you taken out by your parents visiting neighbours, friends, relations?

JH: Yeah, we used to go out.

Int.: Who did you used to go out and see, apart from your grandparents?

JH: Aunties and uncles.

Int.: Would it be friends besides the family?

JH: No, no, they didn't. Most peculiar. As I say, we never went out for a meal or anything like that.

Int.: So they wouldn't have friends at home, because they didn't have friends in general?

JH: No, relations. Mum had had one friend down the road, but then you're talking about woman to woman, they used to go shopping together, and things, but no, they wouldn't meet. My dad wouldn't socialise, he'd say hello to her husband, but no, they never went out. No, I often think about that.... no, they didn't.

Int.: What would you mother do with this other woman, shopping?

JH: Shop, and perhaps they'd have a cuppa tea, but that would be it.

Int.: That would be during the daytime?

JH: In the daytime, nothing to do with evening.

Int.: So you had holidays. Where did you go?

JH: Rhyl or Barmouth. Quite near, you see, because we used to have to either go on the coach or the train, because we didn't have a car.

Int.: And where would you stay?

JH: Boarding house I suppose. Wouldn't be a hotel.

Int.: And do you remember that period particularly, did you used to wait for that?

JH: Oh yes, you got excited, because we always used to go when it was my birthday - take my cake. Yes, I always had a cake. Fancy taking a cake on a train. We must have always had the same week every year. I mean that just shows you, it must have been boring. They were very very happy.

Int.: Only the five of you then, not with other relatives?

JH: Oh no, just us.

Int.: Can you remember any occasion when all the family and relations would get together?

JH: Weddings, christenings, oh, and don't forget Blackpool. Yes, we used to have family do's, if there was any excuse, 'cos as I say that side of the family, apart from dad, I would say was the most quiet and reserved, and mum.

Int.: What about Christmas?

JH: We always used to have it as a family, at home. I think my mother's mother came up on Christmas, when my grandfather died, but I never remember my mother's father coming to our house, at all, ever. It's amazing isn't it... but my gran used to.

Int.: As a child who did you usually play with?

JH: Boys, believe it or not, because I liked rough, like rounders and things like that, and my best pal was a boy, Barry Ellis. He used to have my doll and pram and I used to have his gun. I can remember that.

Int.: What was he doing with your doll and pram?

JH: He was pushing and...

Int.: You were actually playing together?

JH: We were together, but I can't remember what we actually played, but I know I played with him most days, it's when I was smaller. But then there used to be all the kids, and as I say, we used to have a park at the back of our garden, and we used to play rounders, in the summer we were in the park every night, in fact my father loosened the park railings so we could all go through. When the Parkie wasn't looking, we slid the railing and all went in. It was virtually at the bottom of the garden, but in the park. It was marvellous.

Int.: They were kids from the neighbourhood?

JH: Oh yeah, from around. We used to knock and say are you coming to play rounders or whatever.

Int.: Were there other girls?

JH: Oh yeah.

Int.: What about your sister, was she in your group as well?

JH: Oh no, she'd never come out to play. She used to sit with mum and knit or embroider. Yes, ever so quiet, June was.

Int.: What about the friends you had at school, did you play with them as well?

JH: Oh yes, the school was only just up the road, so it'd be perhaps the same, you'd have girlfriends and... I had a very good childhood, when I think back. No aggro, no upsets, just.....

Int.: Did your parents stop or discourage you from playing with someone they didn't particularly like?

JH: No, I don't think so..... No.... No... because they were all more or less the same sort of kids in the road. Some would be a bit rougher than others, but then kids sort them out themselves don't they, I don't really think you have to.... no, I was never told that you.....

Int.: Did you ever belong to any youth organisations?

JH: Yes, Youth Clubs. Brownies, Girl Guides. I used to go to camp with them.

Int.: How did you get involved with the Girl Guides?

JH: From church. Sunday school every Sunday. It was the thing, Sunday afternoons, Sunday school. I did object, but there again I couldn't go to... if you didn't go to Sunday school, you couldn't belong to the Brownies, so that's how they used to get you there. So I used to have to go to Sunday school so I could be in the Brownies, and the Girl Guides then.

Int.: So how long did you stay in these groups. For quite a while?

JH: Oh yes, I think so, yes, until perhaps.... oh, perhaps I must have given the Girl Guides up when I started going to the Youth Club.

Int.: Was this attached to the church as well?

JH: No, I think it was.... I'd started at the senior school then, so I'd got a different set of friends, and I think the Youth Club was somewhere by the school, and I certainly didn't go to that church to go to the Youth Club. It used to be just a Youth Club where you mixed with boys, and generally flirted and played table tennis and walked home. But I would have to be home by about nine or 9.30. That's where they were strict. And if I wasn't....

Int.: What did you do in this Youth Club. Just chat and talk to the boys and girls?

JH: Yeah, generally, and used to play table tennis.

Int.: Did you have music and dances there?

JH: Oh, I think so, yes. What would it be.... Don't they have them anymore - they must do. Yes, generally mess around and giggle and do stupid things.

Int.: Was there a grown up keeping an eye on you?

JH: Oh yes, there'd be the leaders, older people that ran them. They'd be the churchgoers. They were youth leaders. Keep the kids off the streets. I mean they were at it then.

Int.: Did you take part in any sports, in an organised way, in some organisation?

JH: No. No. I used to ice skate a lot then, in the evenings, from about 14 to 17, used to go about three nights a week.

Int.: Were you in a team or just doing it for yourself?

JH: No, just going and having a good time.

Int.: Were you sent to dancing lessons or music lessons?

JH: I was sent to music lessons. Well, I wasn't sent, my sister used to go, and I thought I ought to go as well, but I only went for a few weeks and was useless.

Int.: What instrument was that?

JH: Piano. Oh no, no good at all.

Int.: Was June good?

JH: Oh yes, June was quite good. I used to cycle a lot and do things. I was a tomboy, outside, doing things. Play. Nothing that'd help later on in life, but I was having a damn good time.

Int.: Can you tell me how you spent weekends in those days?

JH: Same as weekdays really. I'd either perhaps go out with my parents, or if not I'd be playing.

Int.: So you didn't go out every weekend with your parents?

JH: Oh no, no.

Int.: So you went to church on Sunday?

JH: Yes, Sunday afternoon. Sunday school. Church of England.

Int.: Did your parents attend church regularly?

JH: No, never. No, my mother didn't go to church - weddings, christenings.

Int.: And what about your father?

JH: No, the same.

Int.: Were you actually pushed by them to go to Sunday school?

JH: Oh yes, you had to go to Sunday school. My father said religion was how you carried out your life, not going to church and all the rest of it, but we all had to go. I think it was to get us out the way. We used to have to drag David along as well.

Int.: Did you like going to Sunday school?

JH: Not really, but I had to go because I wanted to be in the Brownies.

Int.: So how much would you say religion meant to you as a child?

JH: I don't suppose I even thought about it.

Int.: Were you brought up in a religious way by your parents, did they tell you about religion?

JH: Oh yes. My father was a definite believer. Definite believer. Life after death and all that. I think mums just hopeful that there's something, but no, no. I mean to the extent you'd have to get married in church, or christened in church. I can remember when June and I, every child we had, we couldn't go to dads until we'd been blessed in church after we'd had a baby. That sort a thing, but I suppose that carried on from his family.

Int.: Which was religious as well?

JH: Their beliefs, just like saying don't walk under a ladder, it's bad luck. I think this business of.... but I would say dad was ... yes, I think he was the only person I really knew that really did believe.

Int.: But he never went to church?

JH: No, but he sent us.

Int.: When you were at home do you remember your parents discussing politics?

JH: Not really. Not when I was young, because I'd got no time. When we were older, yes. Had quite a few.... discussions about politics, yes.

Int.: Did they vote?

JH: Oh yes, yes.

Int.: Do you know what they voted?

JH: Yes, Conservative.

Int.: What kind of discussion did you have then, the one you can remember?

JH: Well, they wouldn't be long, intelligent discussions. Very likely they'd only be when there was an election coming up, or about what they could ... more local I suppose, because lets face it, the local elections concerned us more than the... it's what they do for us - which isn't a great deal. No, I can't really say we had any great....

Int.: Would you say that their political view has influenced you in that respect?

JH: I think it would be for quite a few years, yes. I would be of the attitude oh, mum and dad always voted Conservative, I'm a Conservative, sort of thing. But it certainly wouldn't now, just because they voted... I'd vote now how I felt. It certainly wouldn't influence me. I still vote Conservative, but I'd vote for the candidate locally who I thinks going to do more good.

Int.: This is about what your parents did when they weren't working?

JH: It wasn't a household.... no books or encouraged you to.... they didn't think that education was the end of ... just that type....

Int.: The two of them didn't have any interests outside the home?

JH: No, it was just us. We were there, fell in love, got married and dad worked hard, did the best he possibly could ... just an ordinary...

Int.: How much time did your father spend at home?

JH: Well a lot really, apart from... he was working hard, a holiday once a year and the occasional trips, very.... mind you, I suppose lots of people do it now, don't they.

Int.: And you said they didn't really have any friends outside?

JH: No, not socially.

Int.: Did you think of people as belonging to different social groups or classes, when you were younger. Did you have a bad perception...?

JH: No, I was always brought up to think I was as good as anybody else, and nobody was.... which I suppose is a bit ridiculous really, when you think about it, but I always had a ... no, no, I was always brought up to...you're as good as... I mean my father, I think he gave me.... he told us all we were so lovely and marvellous, it was quite a shock when you go out into the big world, and not everybody thinks you're so marvellous as your mum and dad. We were just brought up to believe we were as good as anyone else. But never any inferiority complex about it.

Int.: Do you think that everyone in your neighbourhood had a similar standard of living?

JH: I suppose so. Only the odd one, you'd get the odd one. My mother always used to say all kippers and curtains, all sort of show, but not ... no, they were more or less the same. All with the same mortgages.

Int.: Was there any family that was considered to be a bit rough?

JH: Oh yes, we'd got one family down the bottom of the road that was... but there again, it was because she'd got a large family and they were all boys and they were all having a good time, and I always used to play with them, in the park, while I was young, so yes, I can remember the neighbours.

Int.: Why were they considered rougher then?

JH: Well, I suppose because they were all boys. I think she'd got about five or six boys - well they would be loud and noisy, but a perfectly ordinary.... thinking back ... but I played with them.

Int.: Do you ever remember seeing a policeman around?

JH: Oh yes, he used to walk the streets.

Int.: Was he a kind of family figure?

JH: No, I think I was always a bit frightened of policemen, when I was a kid. They always used to be there on their bikes, pushing their bikes. Yes, I remember that.

Int.: So you never got into scrapes with the law yourself?

JH: No. Never.

Int.: What about the other kids you were playing with?

JH: No. No. The only scrape would be perhaps the park keeper. If you were sitting on the flowerbeds say, but that was about the limit.

Int.: Do you think your parents thought of themselves as a member of a particular class?

JH: They thought of themselves as ordinary, decent....

Int.: Did you think it was possible at that time to move from one class to another?

JH: I suppose when I was a child, what influenced me was the size of peoples houses, and if they'd got cars and things. Really - that's it, I mean I didn't look to see if they'd got diamonds, it used to be the size of the house, actually. Yes, I was very impressed at times.

Int.: But you used to think you could have that one day?

JH: Oh yeah, no doubt. We were only living in the house we were living, because mum and dad liked it there, not because they couldn't afford it. That's how I was brought up to think. If I'd have perhaps said anything... oh, so and so doesn't half live in a nice house, my mother would have very likely turned round and said oh, but we like it here. We were never sort of given the impression that we couldn't. I mean we weren't told that we'd got lots of money, but we were never given the impression that we couldn't...

Int.: Did you go to private school or council school?

JH: Council.

Int.: You left school when?

JH: I left at 15.

Int.: Did you get through your O-levels?

JH: No, never took anything. Just left.

Int.: How come you left?

JH: I left because it was the leaving age, and I started work at 15.

Int.: Why didn't you like school?

JH: I don't think I was very bright - I know I wasn't. I had a terrible reading problem, and if you can't read, well it really stops everything. I read now, and I read everything I can get my hands on, I still can't spell. So I wouldn't have sat an exam for the simple reason ... perhaps knew a lot ... if I could've been in a room and just spoke, they asked me questions, I knew it, but I couldn't put it down on paper. I couldn't spell. So that was the end of that.

Int.: Wasn't there any teacher who tried to teach you?

JH: Yes. When I was in the junior school.

Int.: Do you remember any teacher who was particularly good with you?

JH: Yes, the Headmaster, in infants or junior school. Used to have me in every afternoon, and try. Mother used to have to go up to school, I suppose because she was worried, about my reading. But no, no good. And spelling, you know when the teacher puts all the spelling on the board and you have ten spellings, well, I used to worry about that. I used to be terrible, I used to worry, and I used to say... I learned it parrot fashion, actually memorised everything, and my mother used to worry about this, we used to practice at home, and she used to... so I suppose in that she used to help me. And I used to say, don't worry mum, be OK, so long as she gives me the spellings. And she'd put them on the board. She'd only have to alter them around, put one spelling before the other, and of course my whole.... I just sort of memorised.

Int.: What do you think it depends on, this difficulty with spelling?

JH: I don't know, because I can't spell now. I read and read and read and my husband just cannot understand. I suppose it's what you call ... you can go to school for it now... word blindness... what's that word for word blindness, what do they call it.... I'm in quite good company, some famous people can't spell. I mean I can read now, as easily as anything, but I just can't spell. Still can't. It's a very common thing. But it stops you from doing things.

Int.: So you went to infant school, junior school and then senior school?

JH: And then I finished school and went into hairdressing.

Int.: Did you have good friends at school as well?

JH: Oh yes.

Int.: Were they children from the neighbourhood?

JH: Yeah, more or less, within so many miles.

Int.: Why did you go to that school particularly, was it the one you had to go to?

JH: Yes.

Int.: Do you remember whether your friends were better or worse at studying than you?

JH: No, very likely better. If I'm honest. Yeah, apart from the practical things, and then there was no one that could.... because you compensate don't you. I mean I was always very artistic in lots of things. I couldn't paint or draw or anything like that, but I mean sewing or arranging things or colour and ... things like that.

Int.: Did you have cooking lessons?

JH: Yeah, oh anything like that I used to love. Top of the class.

Int.: Were your sister and brother at the same school?

JH: Yes, apart from David and he went to....

Int.: Did they have the same problems as you had?

JH: No. June was bright, 'cos I used to get - why can't you be like your sister. Which didn't help. Quiet and all the rest of it, and good at school. I mean I'm not brilliant, but I mean June was good average, hold her own. I suppose David was alright. David's not brilliant, but he's.....

Int.: How did you feel about your teachers in general?

JH: Some I liked, some I didn't. More frightened... they were stricter in those days. You respected them. They told you to do something, you did it. But I think I spent a lot of my time at school worried, so I was pleased to leave. Worried because I felt... well, I wasn't really learning anything because of this... I suppose I could read by then, but I couldn't put things down on paper, and you had no help. My mother sent me coaching, but then that helped slightly, but ... just for reading and writing ... That was when I was older, in the senior school, but...

Int.: How come you didn't get any help. Wouldn't the teacher be interested if you were a slow learner?

JH: No, I just didn't... can't remember. I suppose they tried, but I mean... I think I needed sort of what they give you now, a more specialised help, and you just didn't get it. My parents sent me somewhere, after school, in the evenings, for what they call... it wasn't coaching - it was just to sort of see if they could... but it didn't do....

Int.: Did your parents encourage you to do schoolwork?

JH: Oh yes, they... I used to have to sit and do this spelling and reading every night to get me to read, but it wasn't hammered or .. I wasn't threatened or... no, no.

Int.: Do you ever remember your teachers encouraging discussion in class?

JH: Yes, 'cos of course I used to like things like that, stories and discussions where you could just sort of... you're not writing it down, you can just have a discussion. Oh yes, I loved things like that.

Int.: Was it common practice to have discussions?

JH: I wouldn't say it was common practice, but I think I can remember the odd occasion.

Int.: When you left school you went into hairdressing?

JH: Yes, an apprenticeship.

Int.: Was that the only choice possible?

JH: No, I could have had... it was the only thing I ever wanted to do, from a very very early age - that was hairdressing. Yes, I had a choice. But actually I didn't consider anything else, I was going to be a hairdresser, and that was it.

Int.: And you started doing that before you left school?

JH: Oh yes, I used to have a Saturday job for about six months before, to see if I liked it.

Int.: Can you tell me a bit about the job. Did you start part time or full time?

JH: Full time.

Int.: And you got a salary?

JH: Yes. About £1 a week.

Int.: Did you have to give it to your mum?

JH: I kept my first weeks money, I had that all to myself, and then half, I think. Yes, half of the £1. Yes, I always had to pay her housekeeping. And when I had a rise, she used to have half of that. But I did very well 'cos I had my tips. So it was no.... and I could always have subs ... well, not subs, dad was always alright for a.....

Int.: And then did you start up your own shop?

JH: No, did my apprenticeship and then I got a job after my apprenticeship and then I was manageress of a shop after that, and I got married in between, and then I was manageress until I left to have Mark after I'd been married about three years.

Int.: So you would have been about 22?

JH: About 23 when I had Mark.

Int.: Then you started work again?

JH: I just used to do it at home.

Int.: What did you particularly like in this job?

JH: I like meeting people. I like being with people. I loved every minute of work, get tired, but I love my job.

Int.: So you like the creative side of it as well?

JH: Yes.

Int.: Did you keep in touch with the new fashions?

JH: Oh yeah, but when it was sets... I'd just finished my apprenticeship when rollers came in; there was no blow-wave or anything like that, just rollers. You washed and you waved the hair, and then you pincurled every pin. Yes, very hard work. Just as I'd finished, rollers came in, well of course it was a doddle then. Just rolling it up, it was as easy as anything. Used to go to college for Marcel waving - that's with the irons, and you wave with the iron. But I was never ever asked to do one. So... I couldn't do that now to save me life.

Int.: Did you use dyes as well?

JH: Oh yes, everything.

Int.: Being a hairdresser you must have spent tons of time with other women. How did you find that? Before starting work you told me that you'd been playing with boys?

JH: Well, yes, I used to like boys because I was more of a tomboy.

Int.: So did you find it difficult to have all those women around you or not?

JH: No, because you go to senior school and you start mixing with girls, really, you have more chats with girls. I mean it was boys really when I was younger. It's girls when you're older, senior school. Well, anyhow, there wasn't any boys there. No, I used to love it.

Int.: Then you started doing it at home. Was it very different from going out every day?

JH: No, I did think... when I found out I was having Mark, I wasn't very pleased, because I used to like work, and I said oh. But once I had him .. and then I'd got my house then, the house I was telling you about, I lived in eight years, and I loved that, and I loved looking after him. I did go out to work when he was tiny, he was in a pushchair, and I decided to get a job because we needed some money, and mum said she'd have him, so I went part time, I went for two days, and couldn't stand it, I couldn't bear to leave him with my mother, and I never went out to work ever since.

Int.: So you haven't done any other paid work?

JH: No, apart from I used to do it at home then. Shouldn't have done, but I did. In the mornings and earned just as much money as I did at work. And I'd got Mark with me. Yes, I liked being at home after a bit. I help my husband now.

Int.: What does he do?

JH: He's a silversmith. He makes all this stuff, what you see round. Nothing to do with families, we met in the park, on the swings.

Int.: What do you do with him?

JH: I just generally... I don't go that much, but when there's wrapping up to be done, generally help... no office work, obviously - answer the phone and generally act intelligent... with people ... smooth em down, and things like that, and help wrap up and things, for him, but it's not regular, only when he's busy.

Int.: Did you regret not having worked over the years?

JH: No.

Int.: You actually like being at home?

JH: Yes, but there again, I used to do my hairdressing at home to meet people, so... no, no. Quite like it, actually.

Int.: So you weren't unemployed when you first left school, you went straight into an apprenticeship?

JH: Yes. Always got a job. I always got a job, and then I handed in my notice.

Int.: What were the working conditions like while you were training?

JH: Very pleasant, but she was vile. She was a woman, and I never ever worked for a woman after that.

Int.: Why. How was she vile?

JH: She was hard, bitchy - a good hairdresser, she gave me very very good training, but I suppose I was just unfortunate with my boss. But I stuck it out because it was an apprenticeship - father had paid for me to do it, so I stuck it.

Int.: Was she only like that with you, or with the other people?

JH: No, she was very charming with other people, but she was a bitch. One of those women that really felt her authority over a little 15-year-old apprentice. And I never ever worked for a woman after that.

Int.: So you found it easier to work for men?

JH: Oh God yes.

Int.: Why do you think so?

JH: They don't realise women are as tough as they are. They don't ask you to work as hard, I don't think. They don't expect as much physical work out of you. They don't push you as hard as a woman. A woman knows you're capable of hard work. But I think she was particularly bad.

Int.: But you've been a manageress yourself, so how did you treat the other women working for you?

JH: Well, fair. Because after.... and let's face it, you get more out of people by being fair. You encourage them; tell them they're doing well, and all the rest of it.

Int.: Did you like the manageress role?

JH: Well, I was a working manageress, so it didn't make a lot of difference. It was only a small place. It was OK. Yes, it's nice not to have anyone to answer to, apart from the immediate... I could always go and sit in the back and have coffee without being told off.

Int.: Would you have liked a different sort of career?

JH: No.

Int.: Can you tell me the occupation of your brother?

JH: Silversmith.

Int.: He's always done that?

JH: Yes.

Int.: And your sister?

JH: Secretary. Shorthand and typing.

Int.: What does her husband do?

JH: He was a teacher. Technical. The left a few years back, they used to live in Sutton, and bought a mushroom farm in Weston.

Int.: So they grow mushrooms?

JH: Well they did, but it wasn't paying, so they do chickens.

Int.: What about David's wife. Does she work?

JH: No.

Int.: Now we are talking about your teenage years. How long did you live with your parents?

JH: Till I got married, I was 19.

Int.: So before that you never lived on your own?

JH: No.

Int.: How did you spend your spare time as a young woman?

JH: Ice skating, dancing, generally enjoying myself.

Int.: Did you go on holiday with your parents? Or did you start going on holiday with your friends?

JH: No, my parents. I only had one holiday without.... well, I used to go on holiday when I was in the youth club. But it was all organised. No, I wouldn't have been allowed to go away with girlfriends. It just wasn't done. And I don't think it was a case of whether they trusted you or not, it just was not... it wasn't done. I think I had one holiday with Donald before we were married, and that took some persuading.

Int.: So you actually went on holiday with them up until you got married?

JH: Yes. And then they used to come with us. We used to quite like it. That was when we had Mark of course. Until we had children we used to go on our own, of course. But then once we had Mark - dad adored him - and they used to come away, and it suited us because they would have helped.

Int.: When you finished work for the day, where would you go, what would you do?

JH: Home for my tea, and get ready to go out.

Int.: Did you have a different group of friends from the ones you had in your childhood, or was it still the same friends in the neighbourhood?

JH: Yeah, I should say it was the same friends. From the senior school, not from the junior school, and not girls out of the road, or anything like that. Girls that I met at school, we just carried on seeing each other.

Int.: So now it was mainly a group of girls?

JH: Oh yeah.

Int.: And you went dancing?

JH: No. Only very very occasionally. I wasn't really encouraged to go to the local music halls, no. It was mostly ice-skating. I used to go there about three times a week. Then I used to go with Arnold, that's my husband, because I knew him when I was 13. And he went in the Forces and I used to see him every weekend when he used to get home. 'Cos they had to go in the National Services - he was in the RAF. So I used to see him at weekends. He used to get home most weekends. And it was ice-skating in the week. And pictures.

Int.: So boys were very rare occasions in your groups. Just the boyfriends you were going out with?

JH: Yeah, well there'd be perhaps all friends ice-skating. It only used to be ice-skating where I'd see somebody else, there's no way Arnold would come ice-skating. He was no good at it, so... he's very very sporty, and he had to be absolutely tops at everything, he wasn't coming to make a fool of himself. So really I just used to see.... yes, it used to be in gangs really. Small group of people.

Int.: Do you think starting a full time job changed your relationship with your girlfriends?

JH: No.

Int.: Did they mostly go out to work as well, or did they go to college?

JH: Work.

Int.: What kind of jobs did they mainly do?

JH: Shops, office work. Mostly office work.

Int.: Did you ever meet with your workmates after work?

JH: No, because it......... well, three years of it was an apprenticeship, and there was the boss and me, she was a married woman anyhow. And then yes, the girls at the other shops, perhaps we'd go into town, pictures - but that was about it.

Int.: You never went to pubs?

JH: No. There's no way I could've gone out and had a drink, and gone home. There was no drinking at home, no alcohol. They didn't object to it afterwards, when I was older, but there would be no way I'd say to my father I'm going for a drink. I used to, of course, when I was sort of 18 or 19, but there again I didn't drink, it'd be a bitter lemon or tomato juice. Because I didn't want it, I didn't know the taste. I mean I love it now. But I didn't know... I didn't need it. Not like they do now. And Arnold never used to drink, he was exactly the same. He used to borrow his father's car and we used to go for a ride and things like that, but it would only be a bitter lemon or tomato juice.

Int.: What was a good night out in those days?

JH: Ice-skating was my favourite occupation. I've never been over keen on dancing, but ice-skating I used to love.

Int.: Where did you go?

JH: Into town.

Int.: Did you ever go shopping with your girlfriends?

JH: Oh yeah. When I was at work, of course, I used to work Saturdays, and I'd have a half-day in the week, so they'd be at work. OK, holiday times, yes. But mostly mum would come, I'd go shopping with mum on my day off.

Int.: Do you remember what you talked about with your girlfriends?

JH: Nothing serious. I suppose it would be clothes and boys. It wouldn't be politics or anything like that.

Int.: What did you talk about when you were talking about boys?

JH: What you very likely talk about, or what you used to talk about. I don't know, can't remember.

Int.: You wouldn't talk about your relationship with a particular boy with the others?

JH: In those days, you had a boyfriend and you didn't flit from one to the other - put yourself about quite as much as they do now.

Int.: Yes, fair enough, but even if you have just one boyfriend..?

JH: Yeah, it's the same thing. I suppose what you would now. But there wouldn't be so many of them. I suppose just giggle about things. I mean nothing serious. I can't think.

Int.: Did your parents disapprove of any of these activities. In terms of leisure?

JH: No.

Int.: What time did they expect you home?

JH: What age are you talking about?

Int.: Sixteen, 17, 18?

JH: If they knew where I was going, and if I was perhaps with Arnold and be in the car, yeah, but 11 o'clock at the very latest.

Int.: Even at weekends?

JH: Yes, there wouldn't be a big row. But that would be late. But that would be late as far as I was concerned. Even now, I can get fed up and want to come home by 11 or 12 o'clock. If we are out at somebody's house. I'm one for my sleep. Not normal is it. I'm not a night owl, never have been. As I say, if I was out on my own, - I was frightened of the dark - and my father would say I'm not meeting you any later off the bus than so and so. Which... he's got to go to work the next morning. So I'd be perhaps on the last bus and dad would be at the bus stop for me, so that would be it. Unless I was with Arnold at the weekend. I suppose I could've stayed out later, but it never entered my head. Well anyhow, we used to go home and perhaps mum and dad would go to bed early, and we could sort of ... we'd be downstairs on our own.

Int.: Did you smoke?

JH: No.

Int.: When did you start?

JH: The occasional cigarette - well I know I stopped smoking when I found out I was having Mark, straight away. Soon as I had him I started again, but then you're only talking about a couple a day.

Int.: Did your parents smoke?

JH: No.

Int.: So you started later on then?

JH: Yes.

Int.: So you tried to stop smoking after Mark?

JH: I didn't try, I did, completely stopped, because I thought it was wrong, and as soon as I had him I started again. Then I carried on. But you're only talking about one or two in a day. And then I did the same with Simon, I stopped, and as soon as I'd had him and I came out the home I started again. I remember my mother saying don't, you've done without it for nearly nine months, don't, don't smoke.

Int.: You had a half-day off when you were working?

JH: Yes, and I think there was one job I had when we had the whole of Monday off.

Int.: What did you do on your day off?

JH: I think when it was my whole day off I'd be perhaps married, so I'd either go shopping or do some housework.

Int.: Did you spend your Sundays differently when you were a teenager?

JH: I stopped going to Sunday school for a start. Yes, I used to go out for the day with my pals. In summer. Yes, I used to do my own thing.

Int.: What did you do in the wintertime?

JH: It'd be Brownies, Guides and then youth club and ice-skating.

Int.: Did religion mean more or less to you then?

JH: No, I used to go to church on a Sunday, but that would only be because I think we used to have a good time in town, so I went to a church in town, then we used to go down to the Bullring after church, having all the speeches on the boxes, and there'd be.... so that's the only reason I went, it's no good me saying I went for religion, because I didn't.

Int.: Did you have any special friends at that time?

JH: One girlfriend, yeah.

Int.: Where did you meet her?

JH: At school, and we just carried on from there.

Int.: Did you stop seeing her afterwards?

JH: Mmmm, yes, she went to Australia, Gillian. She met somebody, got married and went to Australia, so that was it. And you only really have close friends like that when you're at school. You don't make those sort of..... I mean the friends we've got now, are friends we've met as couples.

Int.: And they're not as close ?

JH: No.

Int.: Did your parents meet your friends?

JH: Oh yes, I could take anybody home.

Int.: They weren't disapproving of any of them?

JH: Oh yes, as I got older... where did you meet her, she's a bit.... if they were a little bit sort a noisy or.... no, they didn't approve of anybody, but they never stopped me from.... I don't think I ever actually went out with anyone that was too objectionable.

Int.: Were you allowed to have makeup on?

JH: Yes. But my father didn't like it. But I did put makeup on. Oh, but I was at work, and then of course I was working so I could please myself. But not a lot. Not before... I used to have to go outside and put it on under the street lamp and then it'd only be a bitta lipstick, and I used to have to get it off before I went back home. 'Cos me mum never wore makeup, your mother's never needed it.

Int.: Do your remember your parents attitude towards sex. Did they tell you anything about it?

JH: No. No. I think I was one of those children that thought my parents didn't do it, they were too old. No, never anything discussed. I really wasn't interested in anything like that until I went work, and then listening to the other women. You just know - I don't where I learnt about it, but certainly I didn't have any discussion with my mother.

Int.: And what about having discussions with your friends then?

JH: Oh yeah, just general talk.

Int.: Were you taught anything at school?

JH: No, only how to bath a baby, but they didn't really tell you how you got the baby in the first place. But how to bath a baby. I can remember having a couple of lessons. This big crock doll, and I wasn't interested in that either, so... that was the last thing. I was 14 or 51. No, no, we didn't have any lessons on that.

Int.: So you really learned bits of information from your job and listening to the other women?

JH: Yes, and reading and.... certainly not off me mother.

Int.: Do you ever remember wanting to ask your mother and father about it?

JH: I think I'd have been too embarrassed. Isn't it ridiculous, because I have long conversations about all silly things with my mother now, and she's perfectly... you can tell her jokes and she laughs her head off and all the rest of it, 76, which is absolutely......

Int.: Was your husband the first boyfriend you had?

JH: Oh no.

Int.: In terms of sexual relationship he was the first?

JH: Yeah.

Int.: What kind of relationship did you have with the other boyfriends?

JH: I really, only ever really.... I know this is hard to believe, but from about 14 I was only really ever interested in Arnold, the one I've married. So, I did go with others at the youth club, but it was only a kiss and walking me home, I just hadn't got... it was absolutely ridiculous... when you think. And never ever been interested in anybody since, either. I suppose it's nice. Since I saw him I liked him, 14, and that's it. And nobody... I don't even let them kiss me because I always thought of him.

Int.: But you hadn't actually told him and he hadn't told you. That was an idea of yours?

JH: I think I was a pest to him, quite frankly. For years. I did all the running. Till he went in the Forces and I was a bit older then - out of sight, out of mind. This business of the heart grows fonder - it doesn't. And then he started to get interested, but until then....

Int.: So you caught him then?

JH: Oh yes, he didn't stand a chance. I followed him everywhere. I kept on ringing him up and.... oh yes, a perfect pest.

Int.: How did he react to all that?

JH: Well, he was.... I should think I was a pest. He much preferred a game of football. No, I was just a.... he'd be playing sport all the while, so I used to virtually know where he was going, and I used to go along with my pals and watch, and then hope he'd walk home with me, and if he wouldn't walk home with me I'd take him home, and that was it.

Int.: What did your friends think about that?

JH: I should think they thought I was mad. No, that was it, there was no.... there's no question... I was never ever interested in anybody else. And it wasn't for lack of opportunities. I just wasn't ... isn't it ridiculous.

Int.: He would be the one you started your sexual life with?

JH: Oh yes.

Int.: Was it even before marriage?

JH: Yes.

Int.: Do you think it was the norm during that period?

JH: No. Well, I don't know. Never told anyone. Because in case it ever slipped out, because I'm afraid if my parents knew, they'd have been very very upset. Yes, they would, because they trusted me. And it never entered their heads that I would... so no, I kept it very very....

Int.: Did you decide that together, starting your relationship before you married? Did you think it was going to be important for your marriage as well?

JH: No, because I mean I was very young. So God, no. I mean I wasn't even thinking of marriage. I think it was just sheer... well I don't know... sheer curiosity, I should think. I can't even remember. It was very very childish.

Int.: He is not much older than you is he?

JH: No, he's only two years older. Very innocent, both of us.

Int.: How would you describe the sexual side of your marriage?

JH: Very good. I think. But I haven't got a lot to compare it with. But you know, I mean, yeah...

Int.: Has it always been an important side of the story?

JH: Yes, I think so.

Int.: Do you think it's changed in terms of importance during the years?

JH: Oh yes, it's not so important now. I think it's important, but not so much as it used to be. I mean there's other things. I mean I... yeah, when you're younger and that, I suppose you'd think there was something wrong if.... I think it's important yes... but not so as it used to be.

Int.: What do you think has been compensating that?

JH: I don't know. I don't know, you just get into a sort of more quieter, pleasanter... well, no, not pleasanter, but quieter .. I mean it's not the be end of..... I could visualise living a very... life without, but I mean a few years ago I wouldn't.

Int.: Do you think your husband would say the same?

JH: Yes, I think we are about equal. I don't know, he might say totally different, and be shocked, but I mean I can only go on how..... Yes, I think we are pretty evenly matched.

Int.: Did your parents expect you to marry?

JH: What do you mean, eventually? Oh yeah.

Int.: Did they think you were a bit too young when you eventually got married?

JH: They must have done, but they never said a thing. Arnold was in the Forces and never done a days work in his life - they must have been worried to death. But they liked him. I was quite an independent... I'd got a good job, I earned quite good money, a lot more than my clever friends and all the rest of it. Yes, I was quite confident. But I mean they must have been worried. I'd have been worried. I mean give me the same situation now, I would be worried sick. I'm worried about Simon and Lisa, but I mean Arnold had gone straight from college into the RAF, he'd never done a days work in his life. We got married three months before he came out.

Int.: So he didn't actually have a job?

JH: No. Amazing.

Int.: Did you expect to marry when you were younger?

JH: Oh yes. Yes, it never entered my head I wouldn't get married. That's confidence for you. No, it didn't, no.

Int.: Did you have a particular person in mind in those days?

JH: Are you talking about a fantasy. Well, I suppose really, the only.... Johnny Ray and Frankie Vaughan, we used to queue up and go and watch them at the Town Hall, the concerts at the Hippodrome, Johnny Ray .. Oh God, I must have been ... when I think he was deaf. My father used to say well, he's deaf and he croaks, what do you see in him. Oh, and Jimmy Young. Jimmy Young isn't on the wireless now. Yes, Jimmy Young, you see, they were all the crooners when I was a teenager. Oh, Robert Taylor, yes, Robert Taylor. I know he's dead, but I still quite fancy him now. Dark and..... yes. I used to have fantasies, but always out of reach.

Int.: In terms of looks - what did he have to look like?

JH: No, it was only film stars.... I always used to like fair men. But there again, Robert Taylor was dark. Yes, these tall Swedes, or something like that. I still do.

Int.: How far do you think you got your ideas of a good marriage from your parents?

JH: Oh well I think they had a good marriage in their own way. Never argued, never in front of us anyhow. Bit dull, when I think... well, it might not have been dull to them, but I mean... Yes, I thought marriage was very smooth and happy, and loving, until I got married, and it was a bit of a shock. Rows and differences, 'cos Arnold, his parents had rowed and that, it was a very sort of more aggressive sort of ... more assertive. And when I first heard his father shout and say things to his mother, .. my father never called my mother anything, or never said dam to her, surely he must have felt like it at times, but I mean she can be very infuriating, my mother, she likes her own way.

Int.: How different was marriage from what you expected?

JH: At first... well, I liked married life. Independent, away from the family....I was working and Arnold was working as well. He'd come out of the Forces, he was working as well, then he was going to night school, so for the first few years while we were living at my grandmothers, it really was just work, saving and we used to go out every Saturday night, we used to have a good time at the weekends. Save most of the money, because we were saving, I wanted a house. Just really playing at being married, legally. It was quite pleasant.

Int.: What did you do at weekends then?

JH: We used to go out to a different place for meals, and in the summer it was cricket, I occasionally used to go and watch that. Pictures, theatre. We were never in. Oh, and visiting home, of course. But of course the first three months he was in the Forces, and I stayed at home.

Int.: Where was he?

JH: England. Yes, he never got any further than Gloucester or Cheltenham. He got home most weekends. Yes, it was all very pleasant, and then we were saving for our house, and six months afterwards I had Mark. We used to go out a lot. Meals mostly. I wasn't so keen on dancing. Theatre.

Int.: Was it the two of you or did you go out with friends as well?

JH: We used to go out with other couples.

Int.: How did you first meet Arnold?

JH: In the park, on the swings.

Int.: And you were 13?

JH: Yes.

Int.: Did you have a formal engagement?

JH: No.

Int.: When you decided to get married who told your parents?

JH: I think... I suppose he told his and I told mine and ... that was it.

Int.: It wasn't a shock for your parents?

JH: It must have been a great surprise. Wouldn't wait or anything like that? We got married in a registry office. Couldn't be talked out of it.

Int.: You didn't marry in church?

JH: No, no, father begged me to, but I wouldn't.

Int.: Home come you didn't?

JH: Because I didn't want a church wedding, I wanted ... my sister was getting married and so I said I'd have exactly the same as she had, in what it 'cost for the wedding, and I wouldn't get married in church, I didn't want a dress and I didn't want this... I wanted... and have exactly the same. So I had exactly what it 'cost for June's wedding. And I had the rest to put in the bank and save for a house. Practical 'til the last.

Int.: You told me your father was keen on you getting married in church?

JH: Oh yes, he wanted me to, but I wouldn't. Even when June got married, he wanted me to just blessed in church, and I said... I wasn't going to have that. No. But there was no aggro, there was no argument at all. But I mean couldn't really do a lot.

Int.: Is your husband religious?

JH: No, no. I should say we are the same. In fact I should say Arnold, yes, would fancy... if I'd go along to church with Arnold. Arnold quite likes it, but I think he likes singing.... Not that he sings, but he nearly always wants to go Christmas Eve, he gets the feeling then. It's nice to go to church Christmas Eve. I know what he means, but I can never be bothered. I think perhaps Arnold's more of a believer than what I am. But not going to church......

Int.: Do you think you married the kind of person you expected to marry?

JH: I never thought about it... the person I expected to marry. No. I'd never got anybody in my mind; I just sort of saw Arnold and thought right. And I can't think why, because when I look back on photographs now... I'm not saying anything I wouldn't tell him, just in case he gets his hands on this tape. No, I often say I don't know what I saw in you. You can't explain it, can you? Chemistry I suppose. I think perhaps I was beginning to be a bit of..... I used to like the nice things in life, mixing with different people that used to come into the hairdressers, and you hear them talking, and Arnold went to private school most of his.... and he used to speak beautiful... doesn't now so much, because you mix and.... but he used to, and that's what attracted me in the first place. And as I said before, I was impressed by bigger houses, and he lived in a ... which, when I think about it now, wasn't much bigger than the one we lived in. But, I was impressed. It's a terrible thing to say, 14 year old.

Int.: So he came from a different class to yours?

JH: No, no. His father had just got on better - quicker. But certainly his family - no, no.

Int.: What kind of occupation did he have at this time?

JH: Silversmith. Because he'd worked for his father. But he'd sort of got.... he got money quicker than.... well, his staff, I suppose, was bigger.

Int.: It wasn't just cutlery?

JH: My father was just cutlery. But Arnold's dad made tea sets, sports trophies. You name it, they used to.... and then in the war his father used to... because he couldn't do fancy goods in the war, his father spun shells for the bombs and things. He was a very good craftsman, Arnold's father.

Int.: So when you first met his family what did you think of them? Did you feel it was very much different from yours?

JH: Oh yes, yes. He hadn't had the sort of.... he went to a good school and he had everything good, but there wasn't that... that closeness that I'd been brought up in. Mind you, his mother was OK, but I think his father felt affection but couldn't show it - he was hard. He'd had a hard upbringing, Arnold's father. So he just couldn't show affection. I think it was perhaps there, because he was very very nice and loving to Mark. But he could never tell him. If he wanted to praise Mark up, - that was our first son - he used to do it over the telephone - Arnold's father. You've done very... you've done well at school, I'm very proud of you. But he was for education. Very proud of you. But it always used to be over the phone.

Int.: Never personally. There was never any clear affection?

JH: There was, but he couldn't show it. My husband - his father - never ever put his arms round him or kissed him. He never ever remembers....

Int.: Which you did in your family?

JH: Oh God, yeah. Can never remember. He often said he wanted his father to say well done. But he never did. Bought him things, the best, and believed in education, paid, must have worked really hard, and sacrificed other things to give Shirley and Arnold what he thought was a good education.

Int.: So how did your parents feel about Arnold? Did they like him?

JH: Yes.

Int.: What about his parents, did they like you?

JH: Well you can never really get close to his father. His mother was a bit..... I don't know.... not close. His father, I think, thought I was alright and I was a worker, and I did work. Even when I gave up work I was quite prepared to earn some extra money at home. Apart from needing the money, but I liked it as well. I used to enjoy it. But I mean we could do with the money. I think he admired a worker. His mother... she could take me or leave me. And it's been all the way through.

Int.: Do you think it wasn't just because it was you; it was because it was a cold family, or was it because of you as well?

JH: I don't know. I think it's just a mother-in-law... she perhaps thought she could perhaps have done better. And I let her know she couldn't. I don't suppose she could put a finger on it, and I couldn't honestly say she's ever really ever done anything nasty ... it's just ... not there. She's always very good with the children, but ...

Int.: She's still alive is she?

JH: Yes.

Int.: Did you have a honeymoon?

JH: Yes, we went away for the weekend, 'cos he was still in the RAF. I think we went to.... we were going to Barmouth, but we got as far as Welshpool, and then I think we went to Barmouth the next day, just to say we'd been there. But I mean we didn't go the full way that day.

Int.: So then you lived with your grandmother for two years, and then you moved to another house. How long did you live there?

JH: Eighteen years.

Int.: Can you describe that house?

JH: It was a modern cottage. It was absolutely beautiful. When I say cottage, it wasn't an old cottage, but it was built... the bedrooms were in the roof, a lounge straight through the one side. Well, it was just like a child would draw a picture. The roof coming right down. Front door in the centre, two windows each side of the front door, and then a window at the side - there's two windows in the dining room, and there's two windows in the lounge, a big window in the lounge, and the garden, all the way round, and I grew roses everywhere. It was absolutely.... tiny little kitchen. I mean couldn't have a washing machine. We had an outer house, so... It was so small, the kitchen, it was just functional. But I just loved it. And the bathroom was so tiny, I mean you could sort of sit on the toilet, wash your hands and soak your feet in the bath. You couldn't open the door unless... the door opened inwards, so only one person could.... It was absolutely lovely.

Int.: Did you own it?

JH: Yes, we were buying it. I wouldn't leave.

Int.: What were the neighbours like?

JH: Smashing. We had marvellous neighbours. There was four of these cottages, and there was a tiny little path that worked all the way through them, just like fairyland. The garages were at the bottom of the drive - everybody's garages, and we were the only family... they were all spinsters. The woman that had had them built lived at the top. Then we'd got two spinsters opposite that shared this house, one upstairs, one down, and then we lived in one, and then the other one was divorced, or her husband had died. And we were the only sort of young family there, and it was absolutely smashing.

Int.: So did you have a good relationship with them?

JH: Oh they were marvellous. They loved Mark when he came. The spinster up the way - it was open hours. He just used to toddle up. 'Cos we were away off the road. Yes, it was marvellous. 18 years of sheer pleasure.

Int.: Is it very far away from here?

JH: No, just round the.... just off the.......? Road.

Int.: When did you move here?

JH: About nine years ago.

Int.: And you own this house as well?

JH: Yes. Well, yes, nearly.

Int.: You've got a mortgage?

JH: Yes. Not much, but a mortgage.

Int.: And this is much bigger?

JH: Oh yeah, you could drop our cottage into this twice. Nothing fit. There wasn't a.... It had a decent lounge, 18 foot. It was just nice. We've virtually got the same furniture, apart from all that, that's new, because I'm altering my ideas.

Int.: Did your parents or your husband's parents help you in any way at the time of your marriage?

JH: No. Apart from my parents, yes. I had my money, and my wedding present. But no, his parents didn't. We had promises...... he was going to buy us a lounge suite for our wedding, so I went and ordered one, a really nice one, and when... we had to wait six weeks for it to be made, and when it was ready I told him it was ready, and we had to pay for it. So no, we didn't. No. No, apart from dad paid... we had a little bit of a reception. But we saved for our house. We hadn't got any money then, when we got married, at all. I think we went away with about £10 on our honeymoon for the weekend. Got the firms van, his father's van, went away in that. And then we just saved for our home. My father used to buy us things. Not a lot, no. Since my father died, my mother gives us a little bit. Apart from ordinary presents.

Int.: What was your husband's attitude towards you working?

JH: Loved it. Yes, he didn't mind at all.

Int.: He wasn't like your father who was dead against it?

JH: Oh no. Crumbs no. No.

Int.: What is the financial arrangement between you and your husband now you don't work. Does he give all the money to you, or do you manage it together?

JH: I just have my housekeeping and he does all the bills. And if I run short I just ask for more.

Int.: Do you actually know how much he earns?

JH: Yes. I got on payday and just help myself to....

Int.: Do you have the same account or do you have separate accounts?

JH: No, just got the one account, he's got the chequebook, and he pays... it all goes into that account, and then I have an Access that he pays for on his account. Because I have Access because I just have to sign my name, don't I. Never do cheques you see. So he pays all the bills and I've got my own bank account. I've got my own private bank account. I don't save with his money, but I save.... We did once have a joint account. I don't know what happened. No, we don't have any trouble about money, what's his is mine. No, we don't. We share.

Int.: So you do take joint decisions on how to spend your money?

JH: Yeah.

Int.: Big purchases?

JH: Yeah. He pays for everything like that. Unless.... whoever's got it at the time. Makes no difference, does it, really.

Int.: Did you ever have to struggle to make ends meet?

JH: Yeah.

Int.: How long did it take for him to find his first job?

JH: Oh not long when he came out the Forces. He wanted to be an accountant, so he started that, and then his father became very ill, and he was asked to go and help his father, and he went into the family business, and he's never ever liked it. And the other sons do, but Arnold doesn't.

Int.: So Simon likes it?

JH: And Mark works for his dad.

Int.: Both of them work for him?

JH: Yes. And Mark is like Arnold's father used to be. He's interested in it. Arnold just isn't. He just doesn't like it. He'd been better being what he wanted to be - an accountant. He probably had the wrong education, he had a commercial education. And this is a practical... it looks all very nice, but... he does all the business management.

Int.: Before you got married, when you were younger, did you think about having children. Did you think would have liked to have had children in your life. Or was it a very remote chance?

JH: Very remote. I never thought about it.

Int.: It never occurred to you?

JH: No.

Int.: And when you got married did you have any idea about how many children you wanted, or if you wanted to have them earlier or later?

JH: No, no. no. It wasn't even discussed. Never even gave it a thought. I suppose it was because I was young. I was still virtually a child. No, no. It was never discussed, how many, or what, or how long we'd be married before we'd have them. Mark just happened.

Int.: How long was that after you got married?

JH: Three or four years. We got married in 1956 and Mark was born in 1960.

Int.: And what about the other one?

JH: He was five years afterwards. Born in 1965.

Int.: How many kids did you want to have. Did you stop at two because you didn't want to have anymore or did you make a decision about it?

JH: Yes, I really... I think I'd perhaps just have had one, but my husband said you can't just have an only one. And Mark was always coming home saying he'd like a brother or a sister, as children do, and yes, and then we were trying for quite some time, to have another one, so that's why there's quite a bit of difference. But that was it, specially afterwards, that was it. Not greatly.... I mean I like children, but two was enough.

Int.: Why did you think one would be enough?

JH: I don't know. I used to just enjoy Mark, on his own and all the rest of it.

Int.: So you would have been content with one?

JH: Oh yes, it wouldn't have worried me.

Int.: Did you ever use any contraceptive.?

JH: No.

Int.: Before or afterwards?

JH: No. Yes, amazing. Yes, don't take that as a very good method. I was very lucky I suppose.

Int.: Why didn't you decide to take any contraceptive?

JH: I don't know. I suppose it was just the method we used and it was very... satisfactory, so I just didn't bother to take any precautions at all. I had quite a few comments off my friends about I must have been absolutely mad, but no.

Int.: And your friends did use things?

JH: Oh yes, course they did. Oh, and then the pill. I mean that wasn't about really when ... and I am a bit of a coward where tablets are concerned. I don't think you should mess around with nature. I mean I've got to have a bad headache before I'll take an aspirin. There again, I mean I don't have headaches much, so.... and then I'd got a vein, which I still have got, and..... I've got a vein in my leg and thrombosis and things like that... no, I just don't believe that ... absolutely old fashioned, no reason why I should feel like this, but that's me.

Int.: Did you ever discuss it with your husband?

JH: No, not really. It was my decision.

Int.: When you first got pregnant how did you feel about it?

JH: Mark was a mistake and I was quite disappointed because I thought well, I could have carried on working a bit longer. No great maternal instincts. So that was it. But once I had him that was it. Loved him.

Int.: When he was growing inside you, how did you feel about that. About being pregnant?

JH: I didn't read a thing about it. I actually went to the hospital to have him. I didn't look at a book, they gave you books, it was my own fault, but it just turned my stomach over to see pictures of them growing in my stomach. I just didn't want to know. So I did everything I was supposed to do, looked after meself, I was quite well, apart from a few months and I had severe toxaemia - very bad, but when you have toxaemia you feel quite well. I looked well, everybody told me I looked smashing, I quite enjoyed being pregnant, because my skin cleared up and everything. I really enjoyed it.

Int.: Did you receive any antenatal care?

JH: Oh yes, I used to go to the doctors, in fact you used to go more regularly then than you do now. Yes, right 'till the end.

Int.: Did you give birth in hospital?

JH: Yes, I had to because I'd got toxaemia and I was overdue, and really it was a bit of neglect on the doctor's part. In a sense. He was old, he died just after, of cancer, and I don't think he was feeling. But anyhow, at the very last, when I went over, I was so swollen. When you've got severe toxaemia - I don't know whether you know - but you swell - my ankles would come up, I couldn't bend my fingers or anything, and this was when I was really overdue. Mark was born on February first and he was due for January 26th, and so then he decided I'd better go to Loveday Street, which is one of the big hospitals in town... and when they saw me, they tested me and they said I had to go in the next day. I was induced. And it was a very very nasty labour, so I should imagine that's what put me off for quite some time.

Int.: Was it painful or difficult?

JH: Well, it was very long drawn out. I went in on the Saturday morning and they started me off virtually at lunchtime, and I didn't have him until Monday morning, and I was virtually in labour all that time.

Int.: Was your husband there?

JH: No.

Int.: He was not allowed in or he didn't want to be there?

JH: I don't think he would have been allowed in then. I mean you're going back 26 years. I certainly don't think I'd want him there.

Int.: Because of your privacy or what?

JH: Yes.

Int.: How different was the second childbirth to the first?

JH: It was the same... longer, drawn out, and they virtually told me I'd always be the same from then on. So from then on I decided that was it, he was the last one. Even though you get over it. But yes, not being greatly maternal, that decided me. I thought well, if I'm going to get sort of longer and more drawn out every time I have a baby, I think I'll call it a day. So that was it.

Int.: In terms of preparation, did you do the same things you'd done the first time? You didn't need to re-learn anything; you didn't want to know anything?

JH: No, I just took it very casual. All the knitting and everything they needed and things like that. But very very sort of... I didn't delve into anything. I suppose really I was quite..... I was always very well, as I say, apart from... but even with toxaemia you feel well with it, and that's why... I had them and as I was never very interested in babies, I sort of coped. I did everything I was supposed to do. Took them to the clinic every week to be weighed, and all the rest of it. Looked at my baby and yes, better than anybody else's. And fed them. And that was it. No, no aggro.

Int.: How long were you in hospital?

JH: I always went privately to have them. When I say privately, it was a place that my sister had gone to, thoroughly recommended it for kindness and good treatment, so when I had Mark I had to go in Loveday Street, because I'd got toxaemia, but I had booked in to go to this private home, which run by the Salvation Army, for unmarried mother's. But they just take a few paying patients, to help run the home, and what it 'costs was... you know the State benefit you get ... you know that lump sum, I think it was about £15 then a week, I don't know what it is now. But it was about £15 that you got in a lump sum, and that's what it always 'cost to go into this home. I think I stayed in ten days to a fortnight, I can't remember.

Int.: So you did go in there for the first child?

JH: Oh yes. They took me back to the home by ambulance, so yes, because I'd booked in for the care.

Int.: For two weeks?

JH: Yes, I'm sure it was.

Int.: So what happened there?

JH: Just like in a hospital. Of course I'd had Mark then, in Loveday Street, so the birth was over. But they just looked after you and looked after your babies and you stay in bed, feeling very pleased with yourself, and brought the baby in to be fed and then they took it back. They just.... very very kind, as you can imagine, Salvation Army. It's very nice actually.

Int.: And you did that twice?

JH: Oh yes, they were so kind and good that ... then when I had Simon I booked into have ... go there again, because I didn't want my own home. I wanted to be in the right place, didn't make any fuss, but I just wanted to be in the right place with all the instruments and ... if anything went wrong, I wanted to be in hospital. So I went back there, and of course I had Simon in the home, and they were very good.

Int.: Did they give you any kind of instructions after the kids were born?

JH: Well, with boys, they just tell you what to do. Yes. You bath them in front of people. But they were very good. Very good indeed. How to hold them, how to wind them and all sorts of things.

Int.: Did you breast-feed them?

JH: Yes. For a short while. About three months I suppose.

Int.: Why such a short time?

JH: Well, I don't consider that is a short time. I mean in the home she virtually told me that three months was... even if you can only feed them for a fortnight, it does a baby good, it gets rid of all the impurities, and you're giving them the right thing and all the rest of it. But then I think after that, you just pull yourself down, quite frankly, it takes a lot out of you. And I don't... I can't say I enjoyed it, feeding. I did it because it was the right thing to do. But I didn't enjoy feeding them.

Int.: So it was your own decision to stop?

JH: Yes, and I think perhaps because I wasn't so keen, my milk started to.... I used to be very... very likely subconsciously I'd stopped drinking so much and gradually my milk went, because I knew I didn't really want to go on... That was my decision. My sister used to feed 'till nine months a year old. Well, to me that was......

Int.: Were the babies with you from the time of birth or were they separated from you?

JH: Yeah, they used to bring them in to be fed. No, they weren't at the bottom of the bed. They didn't really like visitors. Your husband could come, and then my mother and father after the first few.... but children weren't allowed in.

Int.: So Mark didn't see Simon?

JH: No, not 'till we brought him home. No, no, children weren't allowed to visit. Weren't allowed to see the babies because of infection.

Int.: And they were sleeping in another room?

JH: In a nursery. Yes, so you had no trouble with them waking you up in the night. It was very nice actually. Thoroughly recommend it.

Int.: In the first weeks who bathed them, changed them?

JH: Me.

Int.: When you were at home did your husband help you?

JH: No. Not at all. My husband was the type that when I was climbing back into bed, after seeing to the baby, he'd say oh, you lay down and I'll change the nappy. But no.

Int.: How about night time, would he take turns to look after them?

JH: No, because I was feeding, and then more or less... mine were very good as babies.

Int.: During the first year how did you look after the children? Did you get help from outside; did you get help from your parents?

JH: Me mum would come visiting and.... yes, yes, those few weeks, mum used to come every day. Be there early in the morning and just help me. But no, I was very very good, I really wanted to do it all on my own. I really enjoyed.... it didn't frighten me. Considering I didn't really ever consider having children, I really enjoyed each baby.

Int.: Did you have any help with the domestic chores?

JH: No. I used to hairdress as well when I had Mark. I used to get him ready and he used to be in his pram and I used to hairdress in the mornings. Alright 'till he was about... when I had Simon as well I used to do the same, I used to hairdress at home. They were never any problem. But they were good babies, so that's.... never any crying, used to be fed, no, they were no trouble at all. I suppose I was lucky.

Int.: And if you needed any advice about the baby who would you........?

JH: I used to take them to the clinic every week, to have them weighed, to see how they were doing and all the rest of it. And they used to tell me anything I wanted, when to start giving them solids, bit of egg or whatever it is, all that cereal you mix up. I just worked through their advice.

Int.: So they were the main source of advice?

JH: Oh yes.

Int.: Would your mother-in-law come and help you as well?

JH: No, not a lot.

Int.: In what way do you think having a baby changed your lifestyle?

JH: I don't really think they do at first, because when they're in the carrycots, we used to do exactly what we used to do before, we went visiting friends, you can keep them in the carrycot. In fact I think the first six months is the easiest part, because you're going out, they're in the carrycots, and then perhaps you put them on somebody's bed - if you still go visiting. You can go riding in the car, because they're in the carrycot. It's actually, I think, children stop you from perhaps going out together is when they have to go to bed at regular... you undress and put them in their pyjamas and they go in a bed, they're out of carrycots, which is about six months onwards. I think it was then.

Int.: What happened then?

JH: Well, we used to have to get a babysitter and then perhaps just go out once a week together. But we did go out. I've always liked going out for.... I don't like dancing and things like that, so we used to go out for a meal with friends, once a week, try different places, and that was it really. Always go on holiday with them.

Int.: So it never changed in that respect?

JH: No, never changed. We've always done everything together with them. I think if anybody, we perhaps changed to fit in with them. No ... the sort of holidays we've always liked... my husbands very very sporty, so he's always liked sporty pursuits. We've still got a caravan. And really, we've had the sort of holidays that suited us all, sporty holidays, boats, water skiing and... Been a marvellous father. Not a very good husband, but a marvellous father.

Int.: So what did he do with the kids? Did he take them out...?

JH: Never any trouble, Arnold played football, he used to... this would be when they could be left to go with him. Once they started to... say from five onwards, he was absolutely marvellous, if he played football on Saturday he used to take them along with him and they'd watch him play football, and he's absolutely... He's the same now.

Int.: So does he spend time with them now?

JH: Oh yes, but if we go away and Mark wants to come they still all water ski together, they've got these surf sailing - wind surfing - he's got one as well, which drives me round the bend. 'Cos I have to help carry it on the beach, because we are on our own - great big thing. But they've always done things together and now the young one of course he had a complete set of golf clubs, so he went playing golf with his father Sunday. They're just great pals.

Int.: So that happened from when they were about five on?

JH: Yes.

Int.: And what about before, did he talk to them, did he play with them?

JH: Yes, not as a baby, he didn't do anything for them as a baby, or dress or... take no interest in them in that sense. What mother's normally do - I did. I don't think they'd ever say to their father well, can I come with you, and he'd say no. I'm talking about daytime pursuits. If ever he was going anywhere that was suitable for them to go, he took them. Absolutely.

Int.: Do you think that being a parent has been how you expected it to be?

JH: Yeah.

Int.: Even in later years when they grew up?

JH: You get your aggro. Things that they do that you don't approve of, but no, no, they've never really been in any trouble.

Int.: How would you describe the relationship that you have with your husband. Would you describe it as close, affectionate, has it changed through the years?

JH: Very happy. Ups and downs. Arguments. Disagreements. Yes, but nothing that couldn't be solved.

Int.: What do you disagree mostly about?

JH: His work. Well, he doesn't like what he's doing so it's always..... The only time I think Arnold and I ever argue, and that's even now, and right from when we were married, was because he.... if something had upset him at work and he's always bought his work worries home, and Arnold is a worrier, in a sense I suppose if he's a breadwinner, he's worrying about that, and I refuse to worry about a thing until it happens. Not going to spend my life worrying about something that might happen. And Arnold, never really having any great interest in what he was doing, because it was his father's firm, he's worried over things that perhaps if somebody really liked what they were doing, it wouldn't worry them. So that is really about the only time we ever argue, because then I get annoyed and he says I'm unsympathetic, and that is it.

Int.: Do you talk to each other and share things that are important to you? Or he does it more than you do, or vice versa?

JH: Yeah, he talks more about his worries and I sit and listen until I've had enough, then I blow my top and he's being stupid and all the rest of it. He's worrying about things that are never going to happen, which he has done. Over the years - what's gonna happen when his best polisher leaves 'cos she's getting old. Things like that. Simple, stupid things. Yeah, that's it. We get on.

Int.: And do you talk to him about your own worries?

JH: Oh I could tell him anything, there's no embarrassment. No, not really, because I'm not interested in the things he likes doing. When he was younger - cricket. I always used to go and watch him play cricket. Didn't like it, but I did go along, 'cos it was a Sunday afternoon out with the kids, and they used to have tea and things like that, and I could chat to the other women. So I used to go along there, but I can't say I ever watched him actually playing cricket. I was there for the social side with the children. And he used to like us all to go along. Football, of course, I was never interested in, I never went and watched that. Sport, I'm not sporty at all. But of course our holidays have been all that.... but there again, I've been on the beach sunning myself.

Int.: You would say you live in two different worlds?

JH: Oh yes, I'm not sporty at all. I like chatting and talking and he really likes me on my own, so that can be a bone of.... like if we go out for a meal and I perhaps start up a conversation with someone, he'll get a bit annoyed about that.

Int.: Because he likes you to talk to him?

JH: Yeah. You don't know them so ... but nothing that's to really worry him that much. He'd stop taking me out, wouldn't he? Led a very boring life really.

Int.: Why?

JH: I suppose we get on... no, we haven't done a lot together. It really is all family.

Int.: What about before having the kids then?

JH: He was in the Forces for a bit. And then we used to work in the week and go out in the evenings, save for our house. We've always gone out. Not nightclubs, dancing or anything like that - meals or rides in the car to see places. All the stately homes of England I think we've seen. Things like that.

Int.: Before you had the kids did either of you have any definite ideas on how to bring them up?

JH: No. We just went along. Just hoped. No, no, children weren't discussed before we got married. I don't think they were even discussed when we were married. Mark just happened, and he arrived and he fitted in, and that was it.

Int.: So you didn't have any discussions about how to bring them up when they were already there, in terms of education, where to send them to school?

JH: No, I always wanted Mark to go to Cambridge and play tennis, but I mean it never happened, so.... yes, I could always see him at Cambridge, Mark.

Int.: Doing what?

JH: Well, I don't know. I hadn't got any ideas, just wanted him to go to University and play tennis at Wimbledon. The top seed. That's about the only ambition I had. And neither happened and I can't say ... because I used to like watching tennis.

Int.: In what way do you think the way you brought them up was different from the way you were brought up?

JH: I suppose we took them out and about more than I ever went out with my parents. I was determined... but there again we always had a car, my parents didn't. If we went out for a day, it was quite a planned thing because they had to find out the time of the buses or the coaches; everything had to be packed up for picnics. But when you've got a car or some sort of transport, just throw everything in, and go when you're ready. So yes, we went out a lot. More so than what I did with my parents.

Int.: Do you think you were as strict as your parents had been?

JH: About the same. Never had naughty children, so we didn't have to... only a normal smack. If they went off or...

Int.: How would you say you showed affection to them?

JH: I mean I still do it now... tell them they're the greatest thing since sliced bread, whether they are or not. I just love them. Kiss and cuddle... not over, because they're boys. But yes, Mark, the eldest is more affectionate. Mark wouldn't leave the house without kissing me. Simon, I have to ask. But I ask, and I get a quick peck. He feels it, but he just doesn't show it. But boys are like that, I think boys are easier, girls are a bit harder, independent, as you know.

Int.: Do they, or did they, confide in you and talk to you?

JH: Oh yes, the eldest, not the younger one. He keeps things to himself, but he will talk, but the eldest literally tells me everything. He still does. Sit down and have long conversations.

Int.: And does he listen to you as well?

JH: Oh yes, it's usually asking what do I think, or.... and I tell him, straight, sometimes he likes it, sometimes he doesn't. But he's asked, so.....

Int.: When they did something naughty would you punish them. Would you just tell them off, smack them?

JH: No, I never smacked. I used to yell and bawl and my husband used to say to me if you smacked them more instead of yelling and bawling we might get somewhere, but neither did he smack either of them. But if they did anything to upset me I used to do the.... well, I don't say smack, you tap them if you can catch them. I don't think I've ever never given my children a good hiding. A calculated good hiding, and I don't think their father has either. I mean if you can catch them, yes, a smack round the legs, but I don't think I've ever sort of... no.

Int.: And you wouldn't say well, you've done this, now you're not going out tonight?

JH: Oh yeah, I've... yeah, but they've always been able to get round me. I've never stuck to it. Perhaps.... I think I'm a lazy mother in that sense, I do think if you can stick to your guns it's better. If you say right, you're not doing so and so, I think it's a better sign of a good mother if she can stick to it, but normally the nagging would wear me down. Oh mum, I will behave... let me.... I put them to bed, go to bed early. But the nagging and the calling down. Oh, can I come down now. Can I have something to eat or drink. I mean I've given way. But I don't think it's ... just that I've wanted a bit of peace personally, so I've given way. But I don't think it's done them any harm, so...

Int.: What sort of things would you scold them for? What would you disapprove of?

JH: Don't like cheek. Downright.... turn round, mouthing, or anything like that. If they'd done anything nasty or mean to anybody I should be very annoyed. I suppose if I had a bad report they'd get a good telling off - from school. Never really.... meanness. If they did anything to anyone... well, mean or anything like that, yes, I'd tell them off and perhaps.... but there again, it wouldn't last long. But there again, they've been good. I mean they're not little angels, I suppose there's things I've forgotten, must be. But no, I haven't really had a lot of trouble.

Int.: How do they get on with each other?

JH: Very well at first, because Mark wanted a brother or a sister, so he adored him, Mark did, being a little bit older, he spoilt Simon, which made Simon quite... he used to interfere a lot with Mark then, as he got older. Whereas Mark had spoilt him when he was younger, and then when he started to interfere with him when he was older, he didn't want to know. And they went through a period like that. But now they get on great. They argue, but they soon... they're brothers, and they can say what they like to each other, but let anybody else criticise one or the other, and...

Int.: Do they go out together?

JH: Occasionally, not all that much. Mark went out on Saturday night because it's Simon's 21st, but they don't go out drinking or anything like that, together. If there's parties or anything going on like that, and they have a weekend sometimes away together. They go down to the caravan on their own.

Int.: The two of them?

JH: Yeah. Well... they go and have a.....

Int.: Did you bring them up to consider certain things important in life?

JH: No. No. I think they just take it from how we've lived. No, not really.

Int.: Did you hope they would achieve certain things?

JH: Yes, as I say... playing tennis.

Int.: That's for Mark, how about Simon?

JH: Well, yes, you do, but perhaps not so much... the first one... but Simon was never very keen on school, so there really wasn't any hope there at all. He left the day he could and that was it.

Int.: What kind of attitude about money did you try and pass on to your children?

JH: I never let them know that we couldn't afford certain things. Never let them think that we... they couldn't have things because we couldn't afford it, which was perhaps the real reason, but they had to wait for things. They didn't have everything they asked for. Managing pocket money... really they didn't have any pocket money either. It was just when they wanted to do things, they asked, and if it was reasonable, they weren't being wasteful, they got it. But you see mostly through their childhood we went away every weekend, so they were doing things. Through the summer.

Int.: So do you think that their attitude towards money nowadays depends a lot on the way they were brought up?

JH: They don't have everything. If they want things they have to save up and....

Int.: And they do it?

JH: Oh yeah, if they want something big. I mean now, yes. I mean I'm not... I mean OK, he's had his golf clubs, but he's put a lot himself, I mean his nan gave him some money, my mother gave him some money and we topped it... he's had to put his own as well. They don't get it all their own way.

Int.: Did you ever have paid help in the house?

JH: Yes. It's when I had Mark, not as a baby, but when he got older I started doing more hairdressing, and didn't particularly like housework, so I used to have someone just to come once a week in the morning, while I was doing my hairdressing, just once a week, she used to just do perhaps the bedrooms, the bathroom and toilet, things like that. Just generally.... not cooking, or changing the beds. I used to do that, and then she used to do the bedroom. It was only once a week for about three hours, but it wasn't a lot. I suppose that would be for a couple of years. Then recently I had a boy that was at college, and he was 17, he's got a summer job now, so he doesn't come. But he used to come, but that only lasted three weeks because he got himself a better job.

Int.: What did he do?

JH: Housework, he was smashing. Recently, that was. Really good he was.

Int.: Did he come and knock at your door to offer?

JH: No, my friend had got him and he was looking for another afternoon, while he was at college, and I said oh, he can come and ... come here, and he was so good that I... then after about three or four weeks of coming, he got himself ... term stopped, this is recently, and he got himself a full time summer job. So I suppose he'll ring me when he goes back to college. Does windows and things. He's smashing. Having boys, you really have to ... well he just didn't. I'll have the windows done this week. Doing it, and really doing it well. Marvellous he was.

Int.: Once a week he came?

JH: Yes, just one afternoon. Smashing.

Int.: Apart from these two occasions did you have to do all the household chores, cleaning, shopping, cooking?

JH: Yes, the lot.

Int.: Did you receive any help from the boys?

JH: No.

Int.: Who does the garden?

JH: Me.

Int.: And if there is some decorating to do?

JH: Me. Mind you Simon has decorated all this. I'm only finishing off the odd....

Int.: But generally speaking you do it all?

JH: I do the lot.

Int.: Did you make any of the families clothes?

JH: Knitting, yes, but not sewing.

Int.: Did your children have any tasks to carry out regularly?

JH: No.

Int.: Because you didn't want them to, or because they wouldn't have done it?

JH: Never asked them to. Snow clearing and things like that, yeah. Those sort a things, yes, I wouldn't do things like that, but no, no. But we've never had a house that caused a lotta work. It's easy, this house, there's nothing complicated about this.

Int.: Mealtimes, when the children were younger. Would you have the main meal together?

JH: I used to cook.. and we've always eaten quite early, so they didn't wait too long from school for their meal, round about five or 5.30, so perhaps I would be eating my meals with the children, and then perhaps sometimes my husband would be home, or if not I kept his warm. More often than not we ate together. Always on a Sunday.

Int.: Would you talk at mealtime or watch tele?

JH: Well, it's all according I suppose, sometimes they used to have it on their lap if there was programmes they wanted to watch. But more or less in the kitchen, or in the dining room at the other house - where they spent most of their childhood. No, just generally conversation, what they've done at school and what they hadn't done.

Int.: Were they expected to behave in a certain way, were there rules?

JH: Well, yeah, they used to have to eat. No messing about and things like that. Generally eat their meal. But they certainly could talk while we were having a meal.

Int.: Did you have prayers at the beginning?

JH: No.

Int.: Did you ever grow vegetables?

JH: No, flowers. We did once have a cherry tree at the other house.

Int.: So you buy all the things you eat?

JH: Yes, ... flowers. I've never had a garden large enough to be able to grow vegetables and flowers, and I'm afraid flowers always.... I used to grow tomatoes in a greenhouse, but then it's getting neighbours to come and water them, because we used to go away in the summer, that I gave that up as a bad... By the time they were ready in our climate, they were cheap in the shops. No, more for flowers. I suppose if I'd had a larger garden I would have grown vegetables.

Int.: Have you had any livestock?

JH: No. Apart from the dog. No hens.

Int.: In the evenings would the family get together and do certain things together?

JH: In the summer they've always done sport. Certainly go to the park, because we always had Sutton Park, which is a marvellous park, and we'd go.

Int.: Would you go with them or would they go on their own?

JH: Yes, when they were younger I'd go as well.

Int.: What about the winter evenings. How would you spend your time at home?

JH: I suppose games or watching tele.

Int.: Did you have any music?

JH: They did, but we didn't. And then they'd have it in the bedroom.

Int.: Were there any books in the house they could read?

JH: No, not really.

Int.: Did they belong to a library?

JH: Oh yes, belonged to the library. Get the books they wanted from the library.

Int.: Did you read them stories?

JH: Yes, yes, all the Ladybird books they used to have when they were young, help them with their reading. But I used to make up stories for them.

Int.: Do you think you encouraged them to read?

JH: Mark used to read quite a lot, and as I say there was always the library, and I used to go down with them because the schools would tell me what books to get. Mark used to, but Simon was most difficult, he just wasn't interested. He was terrible really. He doesn't even read now.

Int.: Were there newspapers in the house?

JH: Oh yes, yes.

Int.: And were they encouraged to read them?

JH: They were just left there, if they wanted to read them they could. That was it.

Int.: Did you have birthday parties for them?

JH: Yes, they always had parties, until they were about 12. I think the last party we had in our house, I opened the front door and all these boys dashed in, and started to swing off everything, and I said right, that's it, I'll never have another party in this house for you. And so really I suppose Mark would be 12, so Simon would have suffered then because there was no way... they nearly wrecked the place. I just couldn't control them. My husband was there as well. Saturday afternoon. He couldn't control them either. I said that's it. So after that they either went to the pictures or they could invite a friend to go to the pictures, but... They've had them as they've got older. Simon had a do on Saturday, but not when they...

Int.: So you stopped having parties when Mark was 12?

JH: Yes.

Int.: What did you do at weekends?

JH: We just used to go out.

Int.: Would that be on a Saturday or Sunday?

JH: Sunday mostly. My husband always played football usually Saturday afternoon, and they'd either go with him and watch him, and I'd perhaps do the garden, do my own thing, have a bit of peace on my own without them all, or then perhaps we used to go for a ride Sundays, after lunch, or visit someone, grandparents.

Int.: So Sunday you used to go visiting as well?

JH: Oh yeah.

Int.: Did you have other friends coming on these outings with you or was it just family?

JH: Oh sometimes, yes.

Int.: You would go with those, and they had kids as well?

JH: Mmmm.

Int.: Did you go on holidays with friends?

JH: No, mostly on our own, but we met people down there.

Int.: You always went to the same place, didn't you?

JH: Yes, more or less once we had the caravan. At first, when they were very little, we always used to go to the Isle of Wight, and then mum and dad had always come with us. But after that we bought the caravan and went to {missing} when they were a bit older.

Int.: Which is in Wales?

JH: Yeah. Those sort of holidays.

Int.: Do you go on a camping site, or did you put the caravan wherever you felt like?

JH: It's static; it's on the same site.

Int.: Is it an organised campsite?

JH: It's a site just for caravans. Do your own thing.

Int.: Do you have your own facilities? Is there a restaurant?

JH: Not on the site. I don't like that, it can get too noisy. No, we go out for a meal in the evening, pub meals. But when they were little, of course, it used to be more expensive, so we used to cook, but it wasn't food like I cook at home, it was more or less easy, we only had a little stove, so you couldn't do a lot, and I mean you made life easy for yourself. So in any case it was on the beach all day, so it would be sandwiches, rolls and what have you. And then sometimes we'd go out for... perhaps we'd go out and buy fish and chips and we'd have them back in the caravan, or we'd go out to a pub and have a cheap pub meal, or I'd have taken something down and just had to warm it up.

Int.: So you weren't working as much as you would be here?

JH: Oh no.

Int.: It was a holiday for you as well?

JH: Oh yeah.

Int.: Were there any relations that you saw quite often in that period, or friends that you saw more often than others?

JH: Oh yes, a couple of friends we used to have. Two sort of different families, friends from... well perhaps from just after we were married or just before - had got married and had children, yeah.

Int.: So your kids were playing with them?

JH: Oh yeah.

Int.: Was there any occasion when your family and your husband's family got together? Or maybe you two and your family?

JH: Oh yes, lots of times.

Int.: And what particular occasion would that be?

JH: We used to go visiting every Sunday virtually, one or the other.

Int.: Who would your children play with mostly when they were young?

JH: Neighbour's children.

Int.: Did they have a group?

JH: No, I suppose they had certain pals in the street that they played with, and then when they go to school they get their own friends there that either come back or they meet.

Int.: When they got back from school did they go out and play?

JH: Yeah.

Int.: And would they be the same friends from school?

JH: More or less.

Int.: Were there girls at the school as well?

JH: I think both. Both went to mixed schools all the way through their schooling.

Int.: Were they free to play with whoever they wanted or did you ever say..?

JH: No, no, because they were all decent kids, they were families that were the same sort of like we are. No, no.

Int.: So it never happened that they were playing with kids that you didn't approve of?

JH: No, no, they'd have to be pretty bad for me to.....

Int.: Where did they play mainly?

JH: Used to play in the gardens normally. Mine or somebody else's. Used to take it in turns.

Int.: So they wouldn't play in the park or the street?

JH: Well no, no, it used to be gardens, it'd be frowned on. And then the park was too far away then, when they were children. They'd have to be taken. If they went in the park it was virtually with us in the evening. Arnold and I.

Int.: But not on their own?

JH: No. Now that's something they would be stopped doing. Especially in this park - Sutton Park.

Int.: Why?

JH: Oh there's terrible goings on there. Well, men... that's where that boy was murdered, in the park. A couple of years ago. Oh yes, it's nasty...

Int.: So kids are not allowed there now?

JH: I suppose they are, they are, and parents let them obviously. I used to go in Sutton Park, I used to have to get the bus, but in those days I used to go for the day with a picnic with my pals. But it's not the same sort of park now, not the same sort of... anywhere, is it, that it used to be when I was a child.

Int.: Did your kids belong to any youth club organisation?

JH: Yeah, the cubs.

Int.: What is that?

JH: It's like a church thing... like Girl Guides or Brownies, but cubs for boys. They never carried on long enough to go to the Scouts, they'd finished then.

Int.: So they never went out in tents for the weekends?

JH: No, cubs don't, do they. They used to go on school trips to the school cottage in Wales.

Int.: So that is the only organisation they belonged to?

JH: Yes.

Int.: For a short while?

JH: Yes.

Int.: Did they have any hobbies?

JH: Yes, Mark used to like doing things with his hands, building aeroplanes. And Simon was the same; he used to have a go.

Int.: Were they into sport?

JH: Yes.

Int.: Were they in teams?

JH: Oh yes, they played for the school teams and that. At one stage all three of them were in the same football team - my husband and my two boys. Wildgreen Old Boys. Wildgreen was a school and it was like the old boys that got this team up, and my husband used to play for them, and then when they were short of players they used to call on the sons to make up the teams. And at one stage the three of them were in the same team.

Int.: Did they used to discuss sport?

JH: Oh yes. Terrible. Nothing but sport, it's disgusting.

Int.: When you were not working, did you have any interests outside the house? Did you see friends of yours on your own, do things on your own?

JH: Coffee mornings and gardening. I used to love gardening. No, only coffee mornings. I didn't used to go out in the evening on my own with a friend. Very very rare.

Int.: So you spent the majority of your time on your own, when they were all out?

JH: Yes.

Int.: Have you kept any of your previous friends?

JH: Yes, I've got a lot that I made at the other house, 'cos we were there 18 years before we moved here, but a couple that we have days out.

Int.: And you call them up?

JH: Oh yes, any trouble or....

Int.: You don't actually do things on your own, apart from the house?

JH: No, not really. Then of course we'd got my sister, we used to visit a lot.

Int.: Does she live far from here?

JH: She does now, but she didn't used to when the kids were young.

Int.: Did you, or do you attend church?

JH: No, only christenings, weddings and funerals.

Int.: What about the kids?

JH: No. They did it at school. It's up to them.

Int.: Do you think they are religious?

JH: They both believe, yes, but not......

Int.: Do you vote in the General Election?

JH: Yes.

Int.: You always did?

JH: Yes.

Int.: And you said you were a Tory?

JH: Yes.

Int.: Do you discuss politics at home?

JH: Oh yes, yes, I'm quite...

Int.: And the kids discuss it as well?

JH: Oh yes, yes, they have quite heated...

Int.: Do you think you share the same ideas?

JH: Yes, I think so. They work for their father, so you are inclined to sort of think... I don't know... these days I don't know who I would vote for actually. I don't think there's anyone at the moment. Yes, but certainly not... nothing to do with us. I think they think for their selves. I don't think we'd be able to influence them one way or the other, they'd vote for who they thought.

Int.: When you say you have heated discussions. What do you disagree about?

JH: Anything that's in the paper, or Mrs. Thatcher's done anything. Just generally.

Int.: It's a topic, which is discussed?

JH: Oh yeah.

Int.: Do you discuss it with your husband as well?

JH: Oh yes, yeah.

Int.: In terms of your married life, how important do you think friends have been? Do you think there have been friends who have been important in your married life?

JH: No.

Int.: Have you changed your friends and made new friends?

JH: No. Virtually the same sort of.... made a lot of acquaintances, specially going away and that, we've got very good friends that live away, that will come here for the weekends and we go to them, but no, I shouldn't say anybody outside the family would influence us in any way.

Int.: Do you think you have support from your friends when say, you were ill?

JH: Oh yeah, there's always somebody I could call on.

Int.: Would it be a woman?

JH: Oh yeah.

Int.: Do you have people dropping in?

JH: Yeah.

Int.: And you do the same?

JH: No. I have to be invited anywhere I go.

Int.: What do you think about these friends dropping in then?

JH: I don't mind, and that's why my husband says I shouldn't mind doing the same to them. But I don't. I have to be asked. Say - come round a certain night, and then I'll go, but I couldn't be passing anywhere and say oh, lets go and see if....

Int.: Do you think it comes from your family?

JH: Yes, definitely. They would never do that.

Int.: When you go to your friends is it for dinner?

JH: No, mostly after dinner for drinks in the evening.

Int.: Did you used to go when the kids were younger?

JH: Yeah.

Int.: Take them with you?

JH: No, perhaps not so much. It'd be more relations then, you'd go to tea with the kids, and you'd come home in the evening. Our friends are ones that we'd perhaps get a babysitter and go round for drinks, or as they got older they'd be left, and we'd go round for drinks. More relations for tea and meals.

Int.: What class or group would you say you belonged to?

JH: Don't know. Don't ever think anybody's better than me, if that's what you mean, apart from the Queen. Well, certainly not lower class am I. I don't know - middle class.

Int.: Do you ever think about people belonging to one class or another, or social group, in terms of status, money?

JH: No, I think education wise, yeah, I think people are a lot better and that, but no, no, I think it's the luck of the draw. They're no better just because they've got more money. I think they're better if they've had an education and they put their selves out and learn more and things like that. But only better mentally, no, I'm afraid perhaps I've got a high opinion, but no, I don't think anyone's got any right to think they're better than anybody else.

Int.: So you would define yourself as middle class. On what basis?

JH: It's the luck the draw isn't it. Perhaps... I'm certainly better than a criminal or these down and outs. But I think if everybody's... just because I've perhaps... my parents had a better chance than perhaps their mother's, grandfather and that, we've never really been that hard up, but it doesn't make me any better say than the lady down the street, that perhaps hasn't had the same. No, no. But then you're talking about snobbishness then, aren't you. Perhaps not what you're on about.

Int.: What sort of people live in this neighbourhood. Do they have a similar way of life or standard of living?

JH: Well, yeah, I should think so. They're all more or less in the same houses. Perhaps some think they're a bit better than others, but then that's their problem. I think there's an awful lot of people that live down here that are either Bank Managers, they're that type of people. Travellers, things like that, because they seem to change houses quite.... down here, and I always think that's a sign of Bank Managers. And they're young, with children. Ok, perhaps some of the children are growing up now, but they were very young with children, and I always used to think they could only afford those vast... if they're getting cheap mortgages. They were that age group. Whereas unless you'd got a very very good job or ... you're talking about 25-30 age group, with young children - then you can afford these places if you're only paying four percent mortgage. But if you're in my age group and you're paying a full mortgage, you're round about 45 before you.... like your second home. A lot of them, it was their first home, some of them.

Int.: So you are actually getting to know many of them?

JH: No. They don't speak. You see the women have cars, don't they? Go straight off in cars. You don't get the... neighbourliness of... like neighbours.

Int.: So you don't really get to know them?

JH: No, a couple of them... they smile and they wave, some of them. Others don't. But then....

Int.: Are there any families around here that are thought of as rough?

JH: No.

Int.: Are there any black people living around here?

JH: There is over the road, I think. I don't think, I know. I don't know what he does, but he certainly.... yeah, a man and a woman. I think they've got one little boy, 'cos I've seen a little boy.

Int.: Were there any black people in the previous neighbourhood you lived in?

JH: Yeah, a few. I know there was one little friend Simon had who was a little black girl, when he was in the junior school. She used to come to the house, not a lot, not a lot, no. There was one little boy, an African, who'd been adopted by some schoolteachers over the road, and that was it. No, very few families.

Int.: What do you think about having black people in the neighbourhood?

JH: If they live like we do... three bedrooms. I don't like them all... all the families moving into... crowds of people living in a house that's only supposed to be for four people and you can get 12 in, and things like that. No, I don't like that.

Int.: Do you think that is a characteristic of black people, cramming into...?

JH: Well, they do, don't they. I mean it's a fact, they do. But if they live normal... no, I haven't got any... in that sense, as long as they live sort of decently, like we do. I mean Simon used to play with a little black girl from school, a little dark girl, and she was perfectly alright. In fact I used to feel... I used to feel terrible about her. I can remember going on a charity walk with Simon for his school - do so many miles. And my husband... we were all going, my husband... we were walking in front, and these two were at the back, and I heard this little girl say..... Simon used to stay for school dinners and this little girl used to go home to dinner and I think she used to get him his sweets and take them back afterwards. And as we were walking round I heard her say to Simon... and I mean you're talking about little, they were in the infant school, little kids, and I heard her say to Simon you are lucky being white Simon. I thought Christ... you know. That's ... you know .. that's terrible, quite frankly, when they grow up with that sort of... that age, to feel that, I thought oh, God. We don't discuss anything like that, as long as they live... it doesn't worry me. I think they let too many in the country.... purely not because they're black, white, yellow or whatever their colour is, there isn't the jobs for them, but I know they carry British passports, so they've got the right to, so, that's it. But I mean there again, I think that of the Irish... and when there aren't jobs, and they're overcrowded and things like that, that's it. So if that's prejudice.... I don't know whether it is or not.

Int.: Do you feel it is possible to move from one social class to another? Is it possible to move up?

JH: Well, yes, I suppose so. Through marriage do you mean? Yes, I suppose you can, yes.

Int.: Do you know anyone who has actually made it?

JH: No, no, I don't actually. No, no, not off hand, no.

Int.: But you think it could happen?

JH: Oh yes, well it does, doesn't it. I tell a lie, I do, I knew Lady Bird. Lived round the corner, it was a friend of my father's, he got to know her first, and he took me round once, she's a very old lady. And Lady Bird - she was married to Sir Bird, the custard manufacturer. You know Birds custard. Well, she was married to him, but she was a showgirl before she was Lady Bird. Used to have a yellow Rolls Royce.

Int.: And you've met her?

JH: Yes, she's dead now, of course.

Int.: Was she nice?

JH: She was a showgirl - a typical chorus girl. His family would have nothing to do with her at all. And I think his will ... when she died everything went back to.... I don't think they'd got any children. I think she was his second wife that I can remember. But once she died everything... it was so tied up, that it all went back into the Bird family.

Int.: Did you think education was very important for your children?

JH: Yes, I suppose it is but.... yes, but neither of them were particularly bright. I mean Mark had coaching. Simon wouldn't have any help whatsoever, just said no, and we let him get away with it. No, I wouldn't have wanted to send them away to boarding school, but there again perhaps if we'd been in a different social thing, it might have been the thing, but I wouldn't have wanted to do, so...

Int.: You didn't want to because of the expense or because...?

JH: Oh no, because of them going away from home. Not when they were young.

Int.: Have they got any qualifications, O or A-levels?

JH: Simon didn't get anything, he wouldn't sit an exam. Mark got his maths 'O'. He didn't get English because he was only talking about going to get that. He's got biology, he did start to take his A-level in physics... or biology... and he found it very very hard. So different from his 'O' to his 'A'. He just couldn't cope and it just wasn't worth it so...

Int.: How old were they when they left school?

JH: Simon was 16, Mark was 18.

Int.: So they never thought of going to college or University?

JH: No.

Int.: What do you think they found so difficult at school?

JH: I think Simon was perhaps a bit like me, he wasn't very academic so he found everything a bit of a struggle and turned it into one big holiday camp, as you might say, to get over not being the brightest boy in the school. So he wouldn't have gone on to... we wanted him to take a trade and perhaps go to college in a sense for a trade, but he wouldn't. He wouldn't even do that, he'd finished school, and that was it, so.... He went to work for a plumber, and quite frankly he loved it, at first, but then there was just no hope, they were just using him on one of these scheme things, it was terrible, the hours and.... It wasn't a scheme, it wasn't a government scheme, he actually got the job and went, and he was on.... I think it was worse money than if he'd been on a scheme, and oh, the hours he was doing and plumbing outside. He was plumbing, decorating, everything. He loved the decorating, because he has a go now. In fact he loved it and he was so interested and he was really learning, and he was only there six months, and the things that kid picked up. But they just put on him, and then he went to work for his father.

Int.: What about Mark?

JH: He went to work for his father straight from college. He wanted to, he really wanted to and he likes it. Whereas his father doesn't, he's like his grandfather, he likes it. He finds great pleasure in.....

Int.: When they were at school did you help them with their schoolwork?

JH: Yes, their father's very good with them, because of course he was...... I used to help them with ... sit and listen to them reading, when they were very young. I couldn't really ... all the simple little things, until they went to senior school and then really...... I wasn't that dim, I could sort of ... but once they left ... then their father used to help them, and if we couldn't, Mark had a bit of coaching off a neighbour who was very good. He was a teacher. And that was it.

Int.: This was council schools?

JH: Oh yeah.

Int.: Did you go and talk to the teachers?.

JH: Oh yes, parents.....

Int.: Did your husband go as well?

JH: We used to both go.

Int.: So they both work for their father. Are you satisfied with that?

JH: Yes.

Int.: Or would you have preferred them to go into some other trade?

JH: No, not as long as they liked it. That's it.

Int.: Do you think they're not going to leave it, they're not going to change?

JH: No, I think they'll stay. Unless something drastic happens. I always have an inkling that now Mark's marriage has failed that he might... sometimes he gets a bit fed up, but I don't think that's anything to do with work, I think that's just sheer frustration... he might get up and say I'm going abroad for a few years. I wouldn't be a bit surprised.

Int.: How old was he when he left home?

JH: He was 23 when he got married.

Int.: So he left when he got married?

JH: Oh yes.

Int.: How did you feel about that, about him leaving?

JH: Oh I missed him. He he's only around the corner, I see him at work, when I go to work, and he's round here. I mean he was round here last night with a girl barbecuing outside.

Int.: Did you help him and his ex wife to start their own house and things like that?

JH: Mmmmm. In the sense that I gave them a wedding present, yes.

Int.: How did you feel about them splitting?

JH: Terrible.

Int.: Was it very sudden?

JH: Well I knew something was up for about three months before, because you can tell. But I wasn't surprised in a sense, no, because they weren't suited.

Int.: How long had they been married?

JH: two years.

Int.: Did you like the girl?

JH: No.

Int.: Did you do anything to prevent them getting married?

JH: No. I pointed out a few things to Mark, which has turned out right, but I mean I only pointed them out and then it was up to him, he was in love. And you try putting anybody off anybody that's in love. You just... It's no satisfaction now being told you were right, weren't you mum. I get no pleasure out of it at all.

Int.: He's not considering coming back home now?

JH: Oh no. Once they've left home they've left home. Could you go back home and live with your.... no, no. He might as well be at home, he gets all his washing and his ironing and..... at night he comes for meals, if he ... he's not daft, he rings up to see what we are having, and if it's anything he fancies he comes, if it isn't he doesn't. I'm no fool.

Int.: Does he live far away from here?

JH: No, just round the corner. He's given me the key, he doesn't mind me having the key to his house, in case I ever have a spare minute, I can go down and..... I would never let meself in without knocking at the door if I thought he was in, never use the key unless I know he's at work and that. I wouldn't go down in the evening without knocking and..... because it's his home now. But he never minds me going down because I only go down when ... he did say last night when he was going, if you get a spare minute. I said well, I wont today, so.... It's in a bit of a mess.

Int.: So he doesn't do anything to the house at all. He doesn't look after it?

JH: Oh yes, he's very good actually. Done his decorating. Everything he does he does very well. He's thorough. He's like Simon, they're both pretty good. But he perhaps doesn't do housework as often as he should, but I'll very likely go in now, and he's very tidy, but the boys don't get down to the... I don't suppose he does skirting boards and things like that. But there again he's at work all day. So fairs fair. But yes, he can cook. He's quite good. He'd never starve, neither would Simon. I've shown them how to do things like that.

Int.: How did they learn?

JH: I got onto them.

Int.: You taught them?

JH: Yeah, just basic things, because my husbands a nit in that sense. I mean when we first got married, OK he could go round to his mum, but say there had been no one, he'd completely left home and there'd be no-one, I think he might have starved. Well, I don't know, I don't know, but I mean he really was... he couldn't iron, he couldn't.... and he'd been in the Forces as well. He hadn't picked up a bloomin' thing. He was an absolute... I used to think... and it used to worry me. I used to think what if I'm ill. If I was ill my mother used to have to come round because Arnold couldn't have coped. Which fortunately I wasn't ill very often. But I made sure that mine could at least grill themselves a chop, do themselves some potatoes, OK not gravy and things like that, but they would not starve, and that's how they....

Int.: Are they able to iron things?

JH: Yes, Mark, especially. Simon, he could, but he doesn't if he.... If I flatly refused.... if he wants a shirt... he's got one shirt he's always wearing it, so it's always in the wash, so whenever he wants it it's always needs ironing, and if he particularly wants it and I refuse flatly, that I'm not going to do it, because I'm doing something... yes, he will struggle, it's not very good, but he'll do it. If he thinks.... he's got an attitude... if his mums about his mum will do it. I'm not all stupid.

Int.: When did your father die?

JH: He's been dead about eight years.

Int.: Can you tell me something about their life in later years? Do you think growing older had changed it a lot? The kind of life they had?

JH: No, it was exactly the same. They didn't do a lot; they were very very fond of each other. Led a very placid, happy life... what they thought, just each other and the family. Used to love us to go visiting, and mum, always welcome to take your kids, always baby-sit. Wouldn't come outa the house, used to have to take the kids to them, but they would always do anything for you. No, I should say it was just the same as... they didn't go out a lot. They always had holidays and things like that.

Int.: Had he retired at that stage?

JH: No, because he'd got his own business, you see. He was ill for quite some time. So he couldn't go to work, but he used to say to me I think when I get better I'm going to have a few mornings or a few days off. But of course he was dying, so... lung cancer. He never smoked. Didn't drink. His hobby was gardening. He lead a very .. really clean, healthy sort of... apart from he was always overweight, like I was, then he lost weight and he said well, Jill, I've always wanted to lose weight, but this is ridiculous, because of course he went so thin.

Int.: How do you think your mother's life changed after that. Has she been really upset?

JH: Oh yes, she misses him, misses him.

Int.: Has she started going out again?

JH: She goes to work with my brother every day, never worked a day in her life when my father was alive, and as soon as dad went... which is a good thing, because she's quite a clever woman. Dad would never let her do anything, 'cos he thought women should stay at home, but she does all my brothers books and everything for him.

Int.: She started soon after?

JH: Yes. Well, she started to get fed up and I think if she hadn't have gone out to work... she perhaps wouldn't have been here now. It kept her going. Interest.

Int.: So she's still very lively?

JH: Well, I wouldn't say lively, she sort of... but she goes every morning.

Int.: Lots of will power anyway?

JH: Oh yeah, very, very.

Int.: Did they go out together as well?

JH: Oh yes, what they did they did together.

Int.: And what did they do?

JH: Not a lot. In the sense that... they used to go on holidays. And rides in the country in the car. All very simple, never used to go out much for meals unless I took... I insisted they did, and they came. They used to come here a lot.

Int.: They never went to pubs, because they didn't drink?

JH: No. If we were going for a meal in a pub, yes, but ... he didn't object to people drinking, he just didn't do it himself, and it wouldn't be dad's way of wanting a night out in a smokey atmosphere. I mean if I went, he'd say here you come, polluting our nice clean air. If I smoked in the house. He was just very, very... he was just very simple and...

Int.: Did your children visit them regularly?

JH: Oh yes, they loved their grandparents.

Int.: What about the other grandparents?

JH: Yes.

Int.: They are still both alive?

JH: No. Arnold's mother's alive, but...

Int.: How do you think she has coped without her husband?

JH: Very well. I'm rotten. Very well.

Int.: What do you think has been the best thing about your life?

JH: I don't know. No trouble. Seeing your kids grow up with no deformity... good health.... just happiness, I suppose. It doesn't sound very exciting, but...

Int.: So you think the period you spent building up your family has been the best?

JH: Yes. Yes, it has.

Int.: And what has been the worst thing?

JH: Sorrow at losing my father. Losing my niece now. And Mark's marriage break up. Not because I miss a daughter-in-law, but to see what he went through. Which he isn't now, but he did at the time. All those worries.

Int.: So that's mainly it?

JH: Well yeah, because it's not ended yet, has it. You come in another year's time, I might be able to....

Int.: What do you think you would most like to do in the time ahead?

JH: I would like to travel more. Very mercenary, I would like to have more money so I could travel more and see the world.

Int.: Would you do it on your own?

JH: No, with my husband. See different sights.

Int.: Do you think it's going to happen?

JH: Yeah, I hope so. I don't know about money, but I think... I might not be able to do it in the style if I'd got the money, but yes, I think we will start.... doing more of our own.... yes, I feel it's my turn now. I fell in with everybody for my holidays and sitting on the beach for long enough, and so I want to start doing the things I would like to do now. Travel and see places.